DRK - SS vs Det ?

[Violette]

Snip

2mins 30s with the new blood weapon as opposed to 2mins 12s of eld.

As for scaling, the reason that SS on blm is more highly favoured regardless is because more hits = more chance to crit. More chances to crit => crit being more worth while and more dependable as a high damage modifier. That being said, as det is now 1-1-1 with SS and Crit, SS is still king, crit/det is running in at ROUGHLY the same value. However, given det scales linearly and crit scales with a negative modifier (each point of crit is less effective than previous point), even with SS counteracting that (each SS point is more effective dps wise than the previous) it's something like SS >det >(just) crit, but the math will be out soonish

The SS modifier on damage isn't as high as people think, it's simply there to make the stat not dead on summoners and bards. Look at the mch stat weights, they only value SS at 0.02, as opposed to the 0.14-16 of crit/det.

[Phoenicia]

2mins 30s with the new blood weapon as opposed to 2mins 12s of eld.

As for scaling, the reason that SS on blm is more highly favoured regardless is because more hits = more chance to crit. More chances to crit => crit being more worth while and more dependable as a high damage modifier. That being said, as det is now 1-1-1 with SS and Crit, SS is still king, crit/det is running in at ROUGHLY the same value. However, given det scales linearly and crit scales with a negative modifier (each point of crit is less effective than previous point), even with SS counteracting that (each SS point is more effective dps wise than the previous) it's something like SS >det >(just) crit, but the math will be out soonish

The SS modifier on damage isn't as high as people think, it's simply there to make the stat not dead on summoners and bards. Look at the mch stat weights, they only value SS at 0.02, as opposed to the 0.14-16 of crit/det.

My post was before knowing about the BW changes. Still, Skill Speed will still manage to make BW a TP loss instead of the slight TP gain at 0 Skill Speed.

Your BLM stat priority is VERY old. Spell speed stopped being "king" and lost favor to Determination with the 2.3 potency changes BLM got, their stat priority became Det >= SS > Crit. Only reason you'd go for Spell speed over Det was due to gear having more spell speed than determination pre-3.0. Check this resource. Too bad he's not updating it anymore.

With 3.0 changes to ratio of determination in gear and to crit as a stat. With the addition of Ley Lines, BLM stats are probably DET > Crit >= SS.

Also crit doesn't scale with a negative modifier. Each and every point of crit adds 0.0232558%. Yes, the more points you have is less of an increase in DPS compared to previous points, but that can be said about all stats (WD, Main stat, Det and Crit) with SS being the exception.

According to Dervy's analysis page, Skill/Spell speed affects DoT multiplicatively as it is multiplied as a "buff" into the damage formula. So I can safely assume SS affects DoTs better than Determination... at least past a certain Threshold.

[Ditto]

I feel Det/Crit are better than SS.

It however seems much easier to stacks SS right now than Det/Crit, so I don't know if the amount of SS you can currently obtain over the other two makes SS better for the time being. I was closing in on 800 SS until I changed some pieces for more Crit.

[Zorthos]

Well here is my thinking. Not saying anyone is right or wrong..it's all our own preferences. Why I say SS/DET/CRIT is because over a say 2.5min fight...on a training dummy since..it's for testing purposes. With my own crit roughly ~640 on avg does an overall 10% chance to crit. I then tested identical tier foods one with crit other with ss at the same max lvl. Crit was still 10% but with SS I gained ~120 dps. Why? With the new change to SS effecting DoT's was a massive boost...Salt the earth and scourge both increased by 20dps alone...that's 40 combined, on top of that you are able to use abilities at a faster rate consistently and hit slightly harder consistently. Pair this with blood weapon you then generate more mana because you can use your abilities at a higher rate. In short..for me at least what works for me..is that the sustain out weighs the current crit rate only for now since there is no way we can boost it considerably. I still had my 10% crit only this time the critical did more damage due to increase of ss (dots)/det.

[Alistaire]

I then tested identical tier foods one with crit other with ss at the same max lvl. Crit was still 10% but with SS I gained ~120 dps.

I guarantee you skewed those results by performing better/messing up less in your test with the speed food. 120 dps increase from food? That's the kind of statement that makes you lose all credibility.

This i don't believe is true at all, sorry. There have been numerous confirms that Det does not affect AA anymore.

Also SS>det for warrior. SS is never a waste since we have unlimited TP. 500+ ftw

Running out of TP was never the only problem with skill speed. Pound for pound, it just doesn't boost your dps as much as equal amounts of crit or det do.

[ManaKing]

I don't factor Blood Weapon when thinking about stats since that's not really a realistic scenerio for anything worth doing and worrying about min/maxing. Though I do agree with the SS argument for it.

SS is nice in its own right because you get in more siphoning strikes. I believe Darkside is MP/minute cost, not MP per swing cost (though that makes me want to test it). So I can see having more MP being a good thing even without Blood Weapon.

Crit is just a good stat. I'm sitting at around 652 crit personally and my rate seems to be 14~15%. I have more that exceeded the x1.5 damage increase and it's just nice.

Det is not impressive, especially as our STR continues to increase and if you use STR/VIT accessories. I'd never complain if it was on a piece, but i would never seek it out.

[Giantbane]

SS also doesn't effect our spells whatsoever. Unmend, Unleash & Abyssal get no benefit.

I prefer crit > det > SS now, SS tends to run me out of TP even faster

Maybe it's less of an issue if you've got a pocket NIN running with you.

[Dante_V]

The stat weights for all classes so far have shown Crit > Det > SS in terms of damage weight with them all being somewhat homogenized in output. Where is Dervy when you need him?

Beyond that due to the lack of same ilvl gear and the high value of str after reaching the vit meta, there is no instance of min/maxing that becomes relevant at this point until more pieces are released. You should always be going with the higher ilvl item for now.

As far as the secondaries in themeselves:

The testing for SS and its affects on dots has shown that the increase in damage is very minor at the current ilvls. This may change in the future as we acquire higher stat caps, at one point the same thing was shown with det and its damage increases but as we leveled higher and acquired larger amounts the difference began to show at higher levels.

You also need to factor in the changes to crit which are pretty big as now crit increases the damage of crits and the rate of crits as opposed to just the former. This means that with or without a native crit rate increase (Internal release, battle litany, dps stance) crit will retain a high value.

As far as SS goes on a drk i believe that Blood Weapon to lessen it's total weight. Then there is also the TP floor which creates a point of very limited returns and the fact that while BW does lower TP consumption the Drk still has no native TP regen cool down or CC skill. SS in practice seems to be a stat that has a "sweet spot" on a lot of classes in regard to allowing x gcds under a certain cool down or dot timing but I've yet to see any tests or theories on this for drk. It should be balanced against the tp floor if no other prevailing factor can be cited.

Determination was nerfed but from all of the weight tests I've seen so far it is still heavier than SS.

There is little room for secondary trading on a horizontal level at this point due to the weight of Str being fairly huge in comparison and a lack of comparable sets in terms of ilvl. Currently the pentamelded 150 slaying accessories melded with vit provide the highest weights for right side total and the there is only one set of ilvl 200 gear so min/maxing "like" sets of left side gear isn't really possible unless you have access to the 210 pieces and the materials to upgrade the eso gear. I do think we will be getting a new 200 set with the 24 man raid coming out so this will likely provide us with a lvl 200 min/max set outside of the raid.

TL;DR
The high weight of Str and the lack of comparable ilvl gear makes min/maxing as simple as choosing the highest ilvl piece available and until we get more than one set at a certain ilvl this isn't going to change. I've yet to see a single left side tank piece were the secondaries from a lower ilvl piece outweigh the main stat increase from the higher level piece so you should absolutely be going with the highest ilvl item as meeting the accuracy cap really seems to be a non issue with the gear sets available.

[Dante_V]

If anyone can show a single DRK piece of lower ilvl that outweighs the higher ilvl piece i would be interested in seeing it. Aside from the 190 pants vs the 200 pants i can't really think of one and honestly if there isn't any available then that renders this entire convo kind of dead because the answer at this point would be str > all outside of vit and acc needs.

[Phoenicia]

If anyone can show a single DRK piece of lower ilvl that outweighs the higher ilvl piece i would be interested in seeing it. Aside from the 190 pants vs the 200 pants i can't really think of one and honestly if there isn't any available then that renders this entire convo kind of dead because the answer at this point would be str > all outside of vit and acc needs.

We don't know the exact stat weights so at this point it doesn't matter. Lowering left side items ilv on a tank is idiotic anyways due to loss of Def, M.Def AND VIT. So even if you gain slight DPS, it's not worth it.