Enough is enough

[Miggiwoo]

I've been lurking the forums for a while, and I've just got to say that all this complaining about warrior being OP is stupid. Let's also not pretend that these threads are about Pally or DK needing a buff - this is straight up complaining about one class being comparatively 'too strong'. My reasons are as follows:

1. Cooldowns: anyone who puts pally and warrior into the same pool is not paying enough attention. Paladins defensive cooldowns can be rolled almost constantly, with really 3 cooldowns that block physical AND magic damage.

2. Tanking stance: Shield Oath is in my view superior as decreasing damage is almost always better than additional HP. Paladins overall require less healing, healers can DPS more.

3. DPS: People underestimate Sword Oath. Also, the dummy is in no way reflective of actual combat - a dummy really only shows the theoretical maximum single target with 100% efficiency and I doubt even the best can pretend to that.

Cont.

[Miggiwoo]

4. TP issues/slashing debuff: Can be resolved by simply bringing a ninja, and a bard or machinist. Show me a composition that doesn't have a warrior or ninja and a bard or machinist. A composition without a pally on the other hand, has no rage of halone.

5. WE ARE ON THE SAME TEAM: Even if warriors were overpowered (lol) - you only benefit from this. There are plenty of statics looking for tanks so if you are getting overlooked, it's not because of your class. In the meantime, progression is benefited by having a strong class. The only time this really becomes an issue is in PVP. PVE players can ONLY BENEFIT from an overpowered class.

I'm still new to this tier but this argument is as old as the hills. I play a pally because I like tanking and I prefer their aesthetic - the balance will ebb and flow but is pretty close at the moment.

TLDR: Pallys are fine, even if wars are OP, we all benefit, quit your bitching.

[Drtoxicmedica]

Inb4 people. People come in here telling you your absolutely wrong and that there respective tank deserves op status....
I myself main dark knight which is arguably the worst for physical heavy fights yet I don't mind that my class has faults. There are things I would change about certain skill yet I can acknowledge my class is just fine for the content at hand atm. Even if it's not the be all end all of tanks. I agree with you. Warriors are technically the best which is fine. Your still not going to stack them.

[SpookyGhost]

A composition without a pally on the other hand, has no rage of halone

oh nooooooooooooo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Smzup8TWOWs

[pandabearcat]

Obviously, the issue is smaller than the huge overblown thing people are making it, but a lot of your points aren't really arguments.

For instance...

1. Palies only have 3 actual cooldowns, and one "ocrud" cooldown that all tanks have (sentinel vs vengeance vs shadow wall). They are very similar in effectiveness. So for palies 3 actual non tankbuster cooldowns, you can get maybe 30% uptime. The "cooldown chain" is a one time thing every 3 minutes. It is certainly far, far better than warrior for sustained AoE pack damage reduction. However, for big tank hits it is a wash. Warrior's new front parry ability is also fantastic for groups, so they got a huge buff there.

2. Again, unless you are going to die, all 3 tanking stances have the same effectiveness (defiance slightly worse because of how 20% healing =/= 20% less damage taken. Sort of mitigated by their fluctuating parry chance, but that is finicky).

3. Tanks have zero positional requirements, all tanks hit equally hard by disconnects...this isn't really an argument. If anything, you should argue that FoF is better, because it is, really really good. However, it isn't up enough for "burn phases" and saving it as pld has no actual burst is not really a thing. So PLD has consistent, okay dps, but on burst targets it loses miserably, and on sustained dps it is slightly lower.

4. Sure, but that requires you to bring a warrior, bard/mch, ninja. It might be true that most guilds have this covered. But it shouldn't mean that a PLD/DRK with DRG, MNK, double caster or caster/ranged should be punished. Needing to be fed TP is not really an advantage. Also, I don't believe any guild right now can spare 15% brd/mch damage just so your tank can do a bit more dps. Nope.

5. Noone is calling to nerf warrior. Buff the other classes. This isn't even a valid argument.

Also, the screaming on the forums does not seem indicative of the actual disparity. But there is a disparity. Even if numberswise this is remedied there are core mechanics problems with how the different tanks play that really impede gameplay or are hard to justify.

[Miggiwoo]

Snip

1. Hallowed ground is similar in effectiveness how?
2. Under the impression that under most conditions block was superior to parry and that again in most cases Paladin's combined block and parry is similar to other classes parry. Adding in bulwark & sheltron I'd love to see the theorycraft here but I would be surprised if mitigation wasn't in the Paladin's favor.
3. Not just referring to positionals - also general movement. My point is that dummies are a bad proxy.
4. You could bring a ninja alone to cover tank TP issues and slashing debuff. I'm saying there are ways around it.
5. Buff other classes and trivialize content. And all based on the assumption that the war is overpowered (lol) - which I reject.

The reality is that if you prefer the playstyle of a warrior, by all means, play one. This is the first tier of the patch and we will still be seeing unique challenges and opportunities within the skills for a number of tiers to come.

[Mikedizzy]

Other poster is correct...we want the Warriors on our side...right...come on don't call for them to be nerfed. On another note...this game is cyclicle and I bet you in the next floor of Alexander Paladin we be shining next. All jobs get their turn and we will see differences in the patches to come you can be sure.

[Brian_]

Other poster is correct...we want the Warriors on our side...right...come on don't call for them to be nerfed. On another note...this game is cyclicle and I bet you in the next floor of Alexander Paladin we be shining next. All jobs get their turn and we will see differences in the patches to come you can be sure.

You play PLD? Because I don't see it. All I see is WAR 60.

snip

I don't know if this is your alt and you have a geared 60 tank class doing end-game content, but a lot of what you've said just seems irrelevant.

1. Tanks don't "roll" their cooldowns in any content that matters. They time and stack them specifically to mitigate encounter based tank busters. In that regard, all the tanks are the same in practice.

2. Mitigation or HP are all the same thing. They're all just part of a larger eHP calculation and in that regard, the three tanks are, again, virtually equal. It's not coincidence, they were designed to be different but equal.

3. When SE tuned content, they did so factoring in 20% human error. Meaning that compared to their perfect set-ups, human players were expected to be at 80% efficiency. The best of us exceeded that by SE's own admission. So yes, dummy parses are dummy parses. But, when you have done the same fight hundreds of times and the same rotations thousands of times with the only goal being to perfect your play, you get pretty close.

4. You'd probably have to dig deep to find a comp without a WAR / NIN / BRD / MCH. But, we can easily show you one without a PLD. Rage of Halone's debuff isn't even kept up by PLDs in most cases. It's that meaningless. BRDs singing for 1 person is a DPS loss. Bringing a NIN to a group that has a PLD / WAR set up means you lose the INT debuff unless you bring NIN / MNK and that would be a DPS loss because of no DRG (top DPS + piercing debuff for BRD/MCH). You notice what's happening? You quickly get pigeon-holed into comps because of balance issues.

5. Yea, there will be statics and PF groups that still take PLDs. There are also a lot of statics and PF groups that don't because they view the job as weaker than DRK and WAR. The same unfortunately goes for MNKs (an unfortunate victim of PLD's weakness) and ASTs. It's not a healthy situation.

New to this tier is an apt description because you really have no clue what you're talking about.

[RapBreon]

5. Noone is calling to nerf warrior. Buff the other classes. This isn't even a valid argument.

Given the choice. I'd choose to nerf WAR, not buff the other two. Powercreep is a pain in the ass.

3. When SE tuned content, they did so factoring in 20% human error. Meaning that compared to their perfect set-ups, human players were expected to be at 80% efficiency. The best of us exceeded that by SE's own admission. So yes, dummy parses are dummy parses. But, when you have done the same fight hundreds of times and the same rotations thousands of times with the only goal being to perfect your play, you get pretty close.

I don't know if Square used the phraseology you're using. But 20% human error? Lmfao, these guys underestimate how much spare time we have.

[Brian_]

I don't know if Square used the phraseology you're using. But 20% human error? Lmfao, these guys underestimate how much spare time we have.

Naoki Yoshida's interview with Famitsu (2015-08-11):

Interviewer: Hearing developers praise the players' skills like that, I can feel how good the relationship between both sides is.

Yoshida: Normal people make mistakes all the time, so if you put eight of them together, they can at best achieve 80% of a machine's results. Or so we thought. Those people are doing 120% by turning the fact that they're a team into an advantage and playing off their job's synergies. The fact that they can collaborate well enough to achieve that is really impressive.