EC explains how the current progression system is flawed

[Purrfectstorm]

So people want an MMO that isn't an MMO?

I thought grinding was just part and partial to the MMO formula.

There are fun and unfun grinds. Generally, the more times you have to do the same exact activity and the less engaged your mind has to be while doing it (i.e. the easier it is), the more unfun it is. Running every level 50 dungeon a few times was more fun than running hundreds of the same types of Fates, for example. Of course, fun is subjective, but I think you'll find this true as a general rule.

[Whocareswhatmynameis]

There are fun and unfun grinds

I think people are underestimating the fun that building a character is. Even when I was little I used to always love playing Final Fantasy and leveling my characters to 99, and getting them the best gear and armor. Unlocking secret legendary weapons, getting rare items, ect. These are the things that make RPGs in general fun.

It's not that FFXIV isn't fun, because it is. But they make it so easy to get to a point where you simply can't advance your character anymore due to walls. One wall is the time gate (where you only get a couple hours of progress each week) and the other wall is the monsterous jump in difficulty from Alexander Savage and everything else in the game. And I think that's when it starts to get boring, you realize you might as well log off because you can't actually make any progress anyways.

It's not that FFXIV isnt' fun, it's just that the fun goes away very quickly because people are trying to turn an MMO into something it isn't. An offline game where they can play by themselves and get every item really easily.

[Purrfectstorm]

I think people are underestimating the fun that building a character is. Even when I was little I used to always love playing Final Fantasy and leveling my characters to 99, and getting them the best gear and armor. Unlocking secret legendary weapons, getting rare items, ect. These are the things that make RPGs in general fun.

It's not that FFXIV isn't fun, because it is. But they make it so easy to get to a point where you simply can't advance your character anymore due to walls. One wall is the time gate (where you only get a couple hours of progress each week) and the other wall is the monsterous jump in difficulty from Alexander Savage and everything else in the game. And I think that's when it starts to get boring, you realize you might as well log off because you can't actually make any progress anyways.

It's not that FFXIV isnt' fun, it's just that the fun goes away very quickly because people are trying to turn an MMO into something it isn't. An offline game where they can play by themselves and get every item really easily.

I agree with everything you said except the last part. I don't think players are trying to turn this into a non-MMO, nor do I think it's a case of wanting to get every item easily. In FFXI, it was a chore to even get a map of the area you were in or increased inventory space, but I loved every minute of it. Again, it's subjective, but I don't think there are very many worthwhile goals in FFXIV. That is still an extrinsic motivation issue though because game systems should be fun independent of what the rewards or goals are. One of the map quests in FFXI involved riding the Selbina ship back and forth hoping for a pirate spawn. I spent 8 hours doing this once while watching TV. This was very unfun. But there were plenty of other quests that were far less mindless and far less RNG dependent.

In every game there are examples of what should and should not be done. FFXIV also has plenty of both. Personally, I'd love it if the best stuff from FFXI (interesting gear, job customization, open world, etc.) was merged with the best stuff from FFXIV (graphics, quest markers, combat system, etc.). Quite frankly, I've thought about going back to FFXI because I think overall it is a better game (better in terms of depth mostly) but I haven't because my partner and I play on different platforms. I have recently begun to look into other MMOs (MMOs because the social, party aspect appeals to me, regardless of whatever single player elements I'd like to see) and right now FFXIV has the advantage because:

- pretty graphics
- cross platform
- other MMOs are worse

But give me a FFXI/EverQuest, old school MMO where the journey (quests, leveling, etc.) is as interesting as the destination (endgame, endgame, endgame), that's cross platform, with decent graphics, and I'm gone. I think this sentiments like this are important for SE to take note of because "Settling for your game because lack of options" is not the best reason to continue playing. Sure, they make money in the short-term, but it doesn't make loyal customers that will play for many years.