EC explains how the current progression system is flawed

[SinisterJointss]

FFXIV fulfills all the criteria to create addictive behavior.

Name one MMO out there that doesn't. Hell name one GAME that doesn't create addictive behavior.

[Meya]

Name one MMO out there that doesn't. Hell name one GAME that doesn't create addictive behavior.

Depression Quest, :P can crap game be called a game though..

[SinisterJointss]

Depression Quest, :P can crap game be called a game though..

You mean everquest? I love how people who never played EQ back in its hayday call it a crap game. You missed out, that is all.

Duke Nukem Forever.

name one game thats actually worth playing?

I hope this is your alt character, I have no idea how you can say you are still enjoying the content when you basically have done nothing from the expansion, you can't really talk about having fun with the current progression of the game when you haven't even reached the progression part of it, or what's being criticized in the video.

And that's the thing, this is basically the first MMO's ive played that it's "Addictive behavior" diminishes, as at the point the majority of players are at this moment is basically just log in a once each day per week for the lazy for capping esoteric, or once each reset to cap for the week, or just wait for raids, the content in this game has absolutely nothing of addictive in the longevity department. And the only addictive part of it that it used to have was the crafting and even that has been walled, effectively loosing my interest in it. Why haven't I left yet? because this is basically currently a glorified chatbox for me to talk with people of other cultures.

It indeed is my alt, and again just because you arent enjoying yourself doesnt mean that im not. It's your opinion (which you are entitled to)

My main I have 3 classes max level, all crafts and gathere's @ 60, penta melded working on my 2* mats. I do my weekly alex for filler gear, I do savage at my own pace, cap my eso's, and red scrips. Treasure maps etc. etc. The list goes on. I'm having fun, if I wasnt I wouldnt be doing it on a 2nd account nor would I be playing.


Bottom line however is simple. Could the game be better? Of course!

[Ayuhra]

You mean everquest? I love how people who never played EQ back in its hayday call it a crap game. Shows how much you actually know.



name one game thats actually worth playing?

Not sure what you mean by "addictive behavior". If you mean name a game that doesn't rely on operant conditioning my answer would be "Any game that is not reliant on constant cashflow to be sustained". That would be non-MMO games and non iOS games. ALL games are meant to be engaging and all games want you to keep playing but that's not the same thing as operant conditioning.

[Amiaze]

name one game thats actually worth playing?

Arguably, Final Fantasy X-2. Just good enough to play, but perhaps not good enough to get addicted to. But that's pretty subjective.

Actually, in this case, it's incredibly subjective. >_>

[Amiaze]

Name one MMO out there that doesn't. Hell name one GAME that doesn't create addictive behavior.

Duke Nukem Forever.

[Evtrai]

Name one MMO out there that doesn't. Hell name one GAME that doesn't create addictive behavior.

I hope this is your alt character, I have no idea how you can say you are still enjoying the content when you basically have done nothing from the expansion, you can't really talk about having fun with the current progression of the game when you haven't even reached the progression part of it, or what's being criticized in the video.

And that's the thing, this is basically the first MMO's ive played that it's "Addictive behavior" diminishes, as at the point the majority of players are at this moment is basically just log in a once each day per week for the lazy for capping esoteric, or once each reset to cap for the week, or just wait for raids, the content in this game has absolutely nothing of addictive in the longevity department. And the only addictive part of it that it used to have was the crafting and even that has been walled, effectively loosing my interest in it. Why haven't I left yet? because this is basically currently a glorified chatbox for me to talk with people of other cultures.

[Ladon]

I'm pretty critical on the progression in FF14 (mostly the out of wack risk vs reward) but I don't think this video is applicable to FF14 in most ways.

FF14 actually delivers more new content at a much higher rate than most MMOs. The problem is that the content is designed to be so "stress free" and casual friendly that many people burn through the content at ridiculous rates then come back crying for more. This isn't a new problem with MMOs, however most MMOs attempt to pace users by introducing grinds and is even touched on in the OPs video. However, the developers of FF14 are obviously deathly afraid of introducing any kind of real grind into this game(I mean you have people whining about having to gear up for A4S already) that the rate of content consumption in this game is out of control. Everything is instant gratification from world travel down to how raids are pretty much a series of boss rushes. So rather than introducing a content grind to pace the game, they have decided to artificially pace users using lockouts. So users blaze along then hit this artificial walls which result in the current situation of people not having much to do once they start hitting those walls.

The content itself also doesn't feel terribly like a Skinner box. There is some tread-milling for sure, but to be honest I think much of this is a result of being afraid of upsetting their current userbase by trying new things. They are simply going with a formula that has worked so far. I don't think it is a result of being 'lazy' or some underhanded scheme to keep the month subscription rates by playing into psychological traps like most mobile games do.

There really isn't much they can do about this situation. The Live Letters of late are making it pretty obvious that they are pushing the content team to their limits as is so it's very unrealistic to expect even more content at a higher rate. The only reasonable solution they have at this point is hope they can recondition the players to start accepting minor content grinds with the goal of ACCESSING new content rather than simply just handing it out like they currently are to meet instant gratification demands.

[Ryel]

The video is from a group that speaks volumes on topics related to video games concepts, practices, trends and ideas.

I've been subscribed to them for a couple years now, and I think they've explained in this episode of theirs what issues I, and probably some others, having with game since the launch of Heavensward.

Here's the video, they put forward arguments and dialogue much better than I could.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5camMoNw-o



What do you guys think, as it pertains to FF14?

I have to agree almost entirely with everything said in the video as it pertains to FFXIV.

There are many gating concepts in XIV that exist for no other reason than to straight up stop your progression (Eso cap says hi), this coupled with weekly lockouts of nearly every significant piece of content honestly leads to things feeling like a chore as opposed to actually playing the game.

There is already a thread on this, but the lack of any long term goals or lasting decisions with actual impact on our character development very quickly leads to the treadmill of gear acquisition getting repetitive and stale. It's hard to get excited over gear for any reason except glamour as stat choices are virtually non-existent, you can usually at a glace determine the better of two pieces of gear because stats only work in one way; either it's an increase or it isn't, even the value of secondary stat choices usually fall short depending on the amount of main stat difference between two given pieces of gear.

Then we have comments like this:

I actually quite like the current system FFXIV has going-- it ensures a level playing field for the majority of the playerbase and keeps there from being a chasm between the people who no-life it and grind everything out as fast as possible and the people who play more casually. I don't know about you, but I'd rather not see PFs full of parties with ridiculous ilvl requirements three days after a patch comes out.

This is one of the most common arguments for the way things are currently handled, it's also one of the absolute worst reasons for why things are designed the way they are, let me explain.

Effort + Time should always = reward.

Now there are going to be a bunch of players who are going to come out and counter this with their personal circumstances or why they have limited time to play or they'll continue the hardcore versus casual argument etc etc.

Hold up.


The game already recognizes that there are players with different skill levels and different times that they're able to play, this is why systems like the party finder and duty finder exist to begin with, it's also why we can create FC's and Linkshells. To deconstruct the above argument, comments like "I'd rather not see PFs full of parties with ridiculous ilvl requirements three days after a patch comes out." completely ignore the fact that players have the ability to create their own Party Finders with their own requirements and specifications if they don't like the ones that are currently listed. If you feel that the current PF parties are setting their ilvls too high for say Ravana Ex, then you have the equal opportunity to make your own Ravana Ex party with whatever ilvl you so chose.

The current design of the system doesn't promote an equal playing field, it actually drags down an entire group of players to play at a level they aren't comfortable with, in addition it punishes the casuals who are unable to keep up to the set minimum pace as they permanently miss out on loot for that week. The only ones it gives an advantage to are the "just right" crowd as far as time spent playing is concerned.

To clarify:

The current design of the game concerning weekly lockouts and Eso / Scrip caps discourages players from playing more than the minimum amount of time required to cap weekly while simultaneously punishing players for not meeting that requirement.

This doesn't even touch on the fact that it runs counter intuitive to the armory system the game itself promotes as one of it's unique features, in fact you actually have a better rate of gear acquisition and ability to play multiple jobs at their peak by playing more than one character than you do by effectively making use of the armory system on one character like the game tells us to.

What's even more ironic is when a similar system was put into place during 1.0 for exp gain it was pretty much lambasted by the community, anyone remember this?

FFXIV Tactics: Understanding the Fatigue System

For all the players who come on here and claim how 1.0 was a horrible game and deserved to burn to the ground etc, I'm curious as to why they're now defending a re-skinned version of one of the worst concepts to come out of it.

Additionally many of the same group claim that the hardcore playerbase is such a small subset of players that doesn't represent the whole, if that's actually the case then such a small percentage of players maxing out their gear and going off to play on their own or quitting entirely should have virtually no effect on the 95% of other players right? I mean if the casual players outnumber the hardcore by so many than the DF and the PF should be filled with like minded casual players who are gearing up at a similar pace and nobody should be left behind, you wont have to worry about the subset of "hardcores" who wish to run fractal and neverreap over and over until their eyes bleed.

If the argument however is that the devs won't be able to keep up with content design, then perhaps the issue is the design of content to begin with.

Perhaps it's time to realize that running 2 endgame dungeons repeatedly on end with 1 real raid isn't ideal for the type of content that breeds longevity, perhaps by looking at the concepts from other MMO's including XI (yes i know taboo around these parts) might better equip them to deal with long term goal oriented content that will reward players who have more time to play, but simultaneously remain interesting and rewarding to those who don't.

The speed at which content is being delivered isn't the problem.
The longevity of that content is.

Or we can just run Pharos Sirius (Hard) for 3 months.

[Fendred]

Well, the point of the video wasn't to tackle gating, but rather the difference between a progression system with depth vs. a pure skinner box. Running the same content on repeat when it was never designed for that causes players to burn out rather quickly. Alexander is a good example of this, as its loot system forces players to run each individual boss more times on average per week in comparison to older raids like World of Darkness if the player intends to get his or her drops.

Adding more strategic depth to FFXIV:ARR would be a welcome change.