EC explains how the current progression system is flawed

[SinisterJointss]

FFXIV fulfills all the criteria to create addictive behavior.

Name one MMO out there that doesn't. Hell name one GAME that doesn't create addictive behavior.

[Etiken]

(but I'm just a stupid little hog, so what do I know?)

Little? That all depends on how long you've been munching on that corn. XD

[Ladon]

I'm pretty critical on the progression in FF14 (mostly the out of wack risk vs reward) but I don't think this video is applicable to FF14 in most ways.

FF14 actually delivers more new content at a much higher rate than most MMOs. The problem is that the content is designed to be so "stress free" and casual friendly that many people burn through the content at ridiculous rates then come back crying for more. This isn't a new problem with MMOs, however most MMOs attempt to pace users by introducing grinds and is even touched on in the OPs video. However, the developers of FF14 are obviously deathly afraid of introducing any kind of real grind into this game(I mean you have people whining about having to gear up for A4S already) that the rate of content consumption in this game is out of control. Everything is instant gratification from world travel down to how raids are pretty much a series of boss rushes. So rather than introducing a content grind to pace the game, they have decided to artificially pace users using lockouts. So users blaze along then hit this artificial walls which result in the current situation of people not having much to do once they start hitting those walls.

The content itself also doesn't feel terribly like a Skinner box. There is some tread-milling for sure, but to be honest I think much of this is a result of being afraid of upsetting their current userbase by trying new things. They are simply going with a formula that has worked so far. I don't think it is a result of being 'lazy' or some underhanded scheme to keep the month subscription rates by playing into psychological traps like most mobile games do.

There really isn't much they can do about this situation. The Live Letters of late are making it pretty obvious that they are pushing the content team to their limits as is so it's very unrealistic to expect even more content at a higher rate. The only reasonable solution they have at this point is hope they can recondition the players to start accepting minor content grinds with the goal of ACCESSING new content rather than simply just handing it out like they currently are to meet instant gratification demands.

[Ryel]

The video is from a group that speaks volumes on topics related to video games concepts, practices, trends and ideas.

I've been subscribed to them for a couple years now, and I think they've explained in this episode of theirs what issues I, and probably some others, having with game since the launch of Heavensward.

Here's the video, they put forward arguments and dialogue much better than I could.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5camMoNw-o



What do you guys think, as it pertains to FF14?

I have to agree almost entirely with everything said in the video as it pertains to FFXIV.

There are many gating concepts in XIV that exist for no other reason than to straight up stop your progression (Eso cap says hi), this coupled with weekly lockouts of nearly every significant piece of content honestly leads to things feeling like a chore as opposed to actually playing the game.

There is already a thread on this, but the lack of any long term goals or lasting decisions with actual impact on our character development very quickly leads to the treadmill of gear acquisition getting repetitive and stale. It's hard to get excited over gear for any reason except glamour as stat choices are virtually non-existent, you can usually at a glace determine the better of two pieces of gear because stats only work in one way; either it's an increase or it isn't, even the value of secondary stat choices usually fall short depending on the amount of main stat difference between two given pieces of gear.

Then we have comments like this:

I actually quite like the current system FFXIV has going-- it ensures a level playing field for the majority of the playerbase and keeps there from being a chasm between the people who no-life it and grind everything out as fast as possible and the people who play more casually. I don't know about you, but I'd rather not see PFs full of parties with ridiculous ilvl requirements three days after a patch comes out.

This is one of the most common arguments for the way things are currently handled, it's also one of the absolute worst reasons for why things are designed the way they are, let me explain.

Effort + Time should always = reward.

Now there are going to be a bunch of players who are going to come out and counter this with their personal circumstances or why they have limited time to play or they'll continue the hardcore versus casual argument etc etc.

Hold up.


The game already recognizes that there are players with different skill levels and different times that they're able to play, this is why systems like the party finder and duty finder exist to begin with, it's also why we can create FC's and Linkshells. To deconstruct the above argument, comments like "I'd rather not see PFs full of parties with ridiculous ilvl requirements three days after a patch comes out." completely ignore the fact that players have the ability to create their own Party Finders with their own requirements and specifications if they don't like the ones that are currently listed. If you feel that the current PF parties are setting their ilvls too high for say Ravana Ex, then you have the equal opportunity to make your own Ravana Ex party with whatever ilvl you so chose.

The current design of the system doesn't promote an equal playing field, it actually drags down an entire group of players to play at a level they aren't comfortable with, in addition it punishes the casuals who are unable to keep up to the set minimum pace as they permanently miss out on loot for that week. The only ones it gives an advantage to are the "just right" crowd as far as time spent playing is concerned.

To clarify:

The current design of the game concerning weekly lockouts and Eso / Scrip caps discourages players from playing more than the minimum amount of time required to cap weekly while simultaneously punishing players for not meeting that requirement.

This doesn't even touch on the fact that it runs counter intuitive to the armory system the game itself promotes as one of it's unique features, in fact you actually have a better rate of gear acquisition and ability to play multiple jobs at their peak by playing more than one character than you do by effectively making use of the armory system on one character like the game tells us to.

What's even more ironic is when a similar system was put into place during 1.0 for exp gain it was pretty much lambasted by the community, anyone remember this?

FFXIV Tactics: Understanding the Fatigue System

For all the players who come on here and claim how 1.0 was a horrible game and deserved to burn to the ground etc, I'm curious as to why they're now defending a re-skinned version of one of the worst concepts to come out of it.

Additionally many of the same group claim that the hardcore playerbase is such a small subset of players that doesn't represent the whole, if that's actually the case then such a small percentage of players maxing out their gear and going off to play on their own or quitting entirely should have virtually no effect on the 95% of other players right? I mean if the casual players outnumber the hardcore by so many than the DF and the PF should be filled with like minded casual players who are gearing up at a similar pace and nobody should be left behind, you wont have to worry about the subset of "hardcores" who wish to run fractal and neverreap over and over until their eyes bleed.

If the argument however is that the devs won't be able to keep up with content design, then perhaps the issue is the design of content to begin with.

Perhaps it's time to realize that running 2 endgame dungeons repeatedly on end with 1 real raid isn't ideal for the type of content that breeds longevity, perhaps by looking at the concepts from other MMO's including XI (yes i know taboo around these parts) might better equip them to deal with long term goal oriented content that will reward players who have more time to play, but simultaneously remain interesting and rewarding to those who don't.

The speed at which content is being delivered isn't the problem.
The longevity of that content is.

Or we can just run Pharos Sirius (Hard) for 3 months.

[Kitano123]

Yea dude, but pay attention to what they say directly before that. Progression shouldn't be used as a tool to train the players to keep coming back, or not as a means to add more play hours without actually adding content.

Like you said, there does need to be so gating so that people dont burn through it. But at the same time it shouldn't be there to artificially extend the life of content - which is what SE is doing with the current endgame, and why I decided to start this thread.

There needs to be a happy medium between gating to hold players back, and gating to simply extend play time, and right now I think SE is too far into the latter.

You're contradicting yourself. You agree that content has to be gated, but not for the purpose of extending playtime which is the entire reason for the gate to exist.

[Fendred]

Well, the point of the video wasn't to tackle gating, but rather the difference between a progression system with depth vs. a pure skinner box. Running the same content on repeat when it was never designed for that causes players to burn out rather quickly. Alexander is a good example of this, as its loot system forces players to run each individual boss more times on average per week in comparison to older raids like World of Darkness if the player intends to get his or her drops.

Adding more strategic depth to FFXIV:ARR would be a welcome change.

[Windklinge]

LOL at you calling ct loot system GOOD or WELL RECIVICED than normal alex. that is a wrong statement right of the bat. because YOU got lucky with old systems doesnt mean they were GOOD or OK. they were RNG overkill afaik and BAD. i am GLAD they are gone now. it took me over 100 runs of wod to see the tank body drop ONCE. never saw it ever again after that. i prefer to run alex short raids for tokens 3-4 times and then i get my item when i use a pf group 90% the time. thats WAY better than running the same dungeon over 100 times to get ONE DAMN ITEM. that is a HUGE step in the right direction afaik.

anyone who thinks the old coil or ct loot were better is usually some of the most lucky players out there. of course to them its now worse. but for most it was worse before.

of course if you df alex normal all the time its no suprise you get your loot slower. but thats YOUR fault. and you can change it and raise your chances by using pf groups instead. not some RNG you have zero control over

[Fendred]

@Windklinge

Damn, that is one horrible streak of luck. I can only speak from personal experience, but you seem to be a rare exception rather than the norm. It doesn't make your experience any less terrible and they certainly should consider some way out for a player who doesn't get his drop, much like the token system they have for Ravana and Bismarck. But making a system that is only reasonable for a party finder group kind of defeats the accessibility they're aiming for, considering those kinds of groups tend to become harder to create further down the week.

Right now its offset by the waves of new players the game brought in, but as things settle down, people will congregate more towards the reset point because there is a greater pool of talented players to draw upon during that time. Sort of like how trying to get into a high level duty roulette is easier when the damage dealer knows when its prime time for tanks to log in.

[SecretCrowds]

Wow. I didn't know we had so many psychology majors on the forums.

[Vrath]

Little? That all depends on how long you've been munching on that corn. XD

I nearly pulled a muscle from laughing so hard.

Thanks, I really needed that. XD