Specialist Recipees: Why do the developers keep listening to bad requests?

[RiceisNice]

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Specialists should NOT be better then omni-crafters, nor did SE ever SAY they would be better. All they said was they wanted to not force people into omni crafting.

There's such a disconnect between what SE says and what SE actually does lately, I'd take it with grains of salt. They'd say <Class> is fine, and end up changing it the next patch. They say they don't want to force people into omni crafting, but the state of crafting encourages you to omnicraft more than before because of the heavy dependence of crafter-originated materials. At this point we don't even know what was the intention with the specialist system, all we know now is that as of this time, it's a complete fluke that does neither to boost individual performance or set it aside from omni crafters.

[Snugglebutt]

No, I'm giving a realistic assessment. If the recipe is unavailable, it's content I can't do.

It is not 'that you can't do', it's that you 'don't want to do'...there is a BIG difference between those two things.

Someone else mentioned desynth as a very good comparison to the limitations of specialists in that both are limited to capping or specializing in three classes on a single character but like with desynth you have the option of having all capped or all recipes from specializations via alts. I'm betting you didn't kick up this much of a storm when desynth was implemented yet the same rule applies except only with specialists you can change your specialization if wanted.

If SE do this right and do include unique specialist recipes like some of us want then as long as for the most part they limit most of those recipes (doesn't have to be all) to non-material/component items and instead stick to perhaps mostly housing items, equipment, vanity items etc for them then it will be the best outcome for the community and the game long term despite some omni-crafters objections in my opinion. Ideally specializations should of been in the game from the beginning but better late than never as far as I am concerned.

You are free to disagree though, which I am sure you will.

[Fenral]

Aww, nobody Like!'d my link to the "No true Scotsman" fallacy (which really needs to be stickied on these forums). I'm greatly amused by some of the responses to this thread, but the sad fact remains that no matter how qualified your opinion as a crafter is, by disagreeing with the opponents of specialist recipes, you're invalidating your own opinion in their eyes by proving yourself to not be a "true" crafter. "True crafters" are a (completely imaginary) united front consisting of only of people who agree that specialist recipes are bad, and any other opinions simply don't exist.

[Joronas]

Nah. I acknowledge the opinions exist, I just know that they are wrong, and derived from utter laziness and unwillingness to commit to mastering crafting in order to excel.

snark off.

Is it really so hard to imagine that I don't want to be made objectively worse as someone who has gotten all crafting skills maxed? That my entire position is based off of not wanting to have 5/8ths of my ability taken away from me so that other people can skip the work I did, even in HW? I haven't objected at all to giving people a "specialist" tag that lets them match me in their 1-2-3 classes. I've even offered suggestions that would make specialists equivalent.

On the other hand, all I see from the recipes crowd is "down with omni crafters, my 1 class should be better then your 8!" I've only once seen one of them make any suggestion that wouldn't invalidate my time.

[Joronas]

Are you one of those people who hasn't done any reading or thinking about this?

YOU CAN ONLY HAVE 3 SPECIALIZATIONS. EVER. It's NOT mastery IV. Mastery IV would be good! Mastery IV -- you put in the effort, you get the recipes.

You can burn over a week's worth of lockout turnins to change 1 of them. Once.

I don't know how to simplify it. Specialists and omnicrafters should be equal in the specialist's chosen class. THE SPECIALIST SHOULD NOT BE BETTER.

[RiceisNice]

Are you one of those people who hasn't done any reading or thinking about this?

YOU CAN ONLY HAVE 3 SPECIALIZATIONS. EVER. It's NOT mastery IV. Mastery IV would be good! Mastery IV -- you put in the effort, you get the recipes.

You can burn over a week's worth of lockout turnins to change 1 of them. Once.

I don't know how to simplify it. Specialists and omnicrafters should be equal in the specialist's chosen class. THE SPECIALIST SHOULD NOT BE BETTER.

I am reading. And I'm still disagreeing with what you want because that's an incredibly selfish perspective because you want access to everything. They might as well have not expanded on crafting at all and we have exactly the same system as it was in 2.0 and play the exact same crafting game for the next year until 4.0.

We have disagreements and that's fine, but you're the one that's objectively saying that the other perspective is wrong and should not be in effect because it's not what you want.

[Joronas]

No. Selfish is saying that leveling 1 class should be better then leveling 8.

I'm the side that's actually bending, by saying that a specialist should be as good as an omnicrafter. Really, it shouldn't. It flies in the face of "reward for effort". The side saying that specialists should be better is the side that's being selfish, demanding and unyielding.

So yes, it's wrong. You do the work to level and unlock everything, you get full benefit from it. You don't do the work? You shouldn't get the benefit. Specialists being able to match someone who has leveled 8 classes is a GIFT. Stop being selfish and demanding bigger toys then the people who have spent time doing more work for them.

And yes, 2.x was good. Reward was coupled nicely with effort. Specialists could have fit nicely in that system. Adding specialist recipes does not. They just make the system weaker and poorer.

[RiceisNice]

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You're putting words in my mouth. I never said that these people would only level up one classes. Hell, you still need a good chunk of them at level 50 anyway for the cross classing skills. I'm arguing on the end of a single player getting access to all recipes, not so much in the efficency of how they can craft with specialist.

Gearing up in 2.0, especially at the late game, did not take work, you're grossly overexaggering the amount of effort needed to gear up an omnicrafter. it's called Artisan Gear. You were effectively doing the work of one gearing up one job to gear up for all 8. It was easier to gear and omnicrafting at that point was so easily accessible that it made crafting in general moot.

Hell, this is the case now. You can effectively omnicraft as of right now in fully melded white pieces, there's absolutely no reason to get the AF pieces other than for glamour and to prepare for future recipe implementations.

[Joronas]

Snugglebutt, desynth was likewise stupid. But it was also minor and WASN'T seen coming. This we can see coming, so stopping it is a priority.

Your idea for the best outcome is delusional at best. The best outcome is a vibrant and robust community that everyone feels welcome in, and contributes to. Your ideas go the exact opposite direction of that. It strips things from some of us in favor of people who didn't want to do the work for everything. Some of us want to welcome you to a community that lets everyone contribute. You just want to take away our ability to do things we enjoy so you can feel better about not having done the same work.

[Snugglebutt]

It strips things from some of us in favor of people who didn't want to do the work for everything.

It strips you of nothing, you cannot be stripped of something you never had aka recipes that have not yet been added and also not stripped of them even when are added as you 'can' obtain them if wanted just like to gain access to all desynth items from all classes you had to put in extra effort through creation of alts. You also keep going on about effort yet flat out refuse to put in the effort to obtain all the specialist recipes via those same alts, the problem is with you not willing to put in the effort to obtain everything you want despite it being possible for you to obtain them all if wanted it bad enough.

I'm a generalist programmer? I can do everything, and am harder to replace then the specialists. I watched people try. They might be able to do some tasks easier or faster; but I can do them as well.

You might think you can but you cannot, much like just because might have studied science in pre-school doesn't mean you can do quantum psychics. Just because you can draw a picture doesn't mean you can produce a 2D CAD design for the construction of a building or layout of a town. Just because you study programming and can make a 2D sprite move across a screen in visual basic does not mean you can produce a 3D polygonal character move in C++. A specialist not only does things faster and easier, but they can also do what someone who is not a specialist cannot. If you think otherwise I am sorry but you are incorrect and you would be seriously misunderstanding the concept and reality of what being a specialist actually means.