Enough is enough

[Phoenicia]

[URL="https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/1wz31r/pld_war_dps_what_gives/"]

That analysis was based on WAR rotation SE/SP, not SE/BB. Also WAR juggling Defiance to use Unchained+IB then dropping Defiance did more DPS than not popping defiance at all.

Anyways, it's awash, my WAR used to do 450 DPS in 130 gear while my PLD mate used to do 430~440.

The DPS difference between WAR OT and PLD OT hasn't been solidly proven. But the WAR MT / PLD OT definitely proved to do more DPS than the opposite.

[SpookyGhost]

Also any time that PLD needed to go into ShO, they lost a lot more damage than a WAR going into Defiance. Still true now. The ideal min/max DPS setup was PLD MT in SwO + WAR OT but that only came around after content was overgeared and ready to be sold.

[Faytte]

1. Cooldowns: anyone who puts pally and warrior into the same pool is not paying enough attention. Paladins defensive cooldowns can be rolled almost constantly, with really 3 cooldowns that block physical AND magic damage.

2. Tanking stance: Shield Oath is in my view superior as decreasing damage is almost always better than additional HP. Paladins overall require less healing, healers can DPS more.

3. DPS: People underestimate Sword Oath. Also, the dummy is in no way reflective of actual combat - a dummy really only shows the theoretical maximum single target with 100% efficiency and I doubt even the best can pretend to that.

Cont.

1. With 2 exceptions (Iron Will, Bulwark)Other tanks all have the same cds as a Paladin (or more). Cova, Awareness are both cross class; all paladin has is traits for them (and the only good one is frankly awareness. Cova's extra 10% results in almost entirely over healing in my experience. You have 20% cd 90 sec, a 40% at 180 seconds, bulwark is also 180 seconds for only 15 seconds of uptime. The only cooldown that Paladins get thats actually 'better' than other tanks is Hallowed Ground.

2. You dont understand math. Warriors get extra healing and extra health. The effect is they are the same as paladins. If both of you have 10K health and a warrior is in stance, and you both take a set of damage (say, 2K) and then get healed, you will both be at the same % of health.

3. They dont. They parse the heck out of Sword Oath--its ok, it just isnt at the same level as other tanks. This is however FINE if the extra utility a paladin brought into raids meant a damn. Clemency is too slow to be of any importance, and most damage worth noting now adays is magical; so rage of halone and cover are pretty irrelevant.

4. I dont disagree.

5. Warriors arnt over powered; Paladins are under powered at this point. They dont need --the same damage-- but the Paladin niche of better damage absorption is mostly a myth; you can tank auto attacks better via your shield, but with the loss of physical busters, bulwark/shelltron are kind of negated, they only reduce the damage your healers had no problem healing anyways.

[Crystel_Leah]

English/ Children's forum

[Phoenicia]

5. Warriors arnt over powered; Paladins are under powered at this point.

Welcome back Faytte. Havne't seen you posting lately, been away?

I don't agree that PLD is under powered. PLD just suffers from being "unfavored" to the current content. But I agree something needs to be done. If you have 3 options, none of them should be left out. Even if in the end you have a worst/best option.

[AniCelestine]

You fix nothing by nerfing WAR, specially when it is how the other tanks should've been, not the other way around. WAR isn't over tuned, it's the only tank done right.

It's the only tank done right for the current content*
Current content is based on dps checks, that wasn't the case when pld was relatively close to warrior dps in tank stance in 2.xx (when you could really have both tank's in tank stance even if it was a mt/OT and still beat the dps checks quite easily) but with the ease of changing stances as warrior and the incoming dmg coming to tanks not requiring being 100% on tank stance.(my group's warrior sits in defiance till 30% on faust as opposed to the 50% most use, sure its a bit riskier but dps dps and dps.) The dmg output difference gets too high with the way pld vs warrior is(dps and stance dancingwise), and since drk has better magical defense (and dk replacer) drk wins over pld for the current content (alongside with their dps still being a bit better) pld just doesn't fit into the current content because of how paladin is designed; physical damage wall.

[Phoenicia]

It's the only tank done right for the current content*

WAR is done right, period. It had a complete tanking set since 2.1 and that hasn't changed. It only got better. WAR in Defiance did double the DPS of Shield Oath PLD pre-HW.

WAR has all the tools to do a perfect job as MT. WAR has all the tools to do a perfect job as OT. It can switch on the fly. And it provides support that doesn't conflict with other classes. WAR's toolkit as a whole is very cohesive and synergistic with itself as opposed to DRK's self-conflicting and PLD's overly situational toolkits. Put WAR with any other tank, and that tank performs better! WAR is also the only tank that provides another DPS class a DPS benefit.

This is where things went bad, DRK skill set has conflicts but it's not breaking the class. But DRK doesn't offer synergy with any other class (as in doesn't provide buffs that make others perform better). Only reason DRK has a place in raids is its DPS. And the magical tank busters don't hurt DRK as much as physical ones. Had the raids had physical tank busters, DRKs would be the unwanted black sheep.

PLD on the other hand does provide great defensive utility... The problem? It's not needed. At least, not as much as DPS is. So that's why PLD "doesn't fit". There is no "need" for what the PLD has to offer. PLD is a great class as it is, but it doesn't offer what is needed for this DPS-check heavy environment.

[Sir-Meliodas]

If Warrior is what a tank should be, then Pld and Drk are underpowered. Pld needs a damage increasing buff from a combo like warrior. Also, both Pld and Drk need extra effects from their combos being added as warrior has 4 effects (enmity, self healing, target damage output reduction, and slashing resistance debuff) while Pld has 2 (enmity and strength down) and drk has 3 (enmity, int down, and self heal). In the current system the Pld is the training wheels tank, the Drk is the Bike tank, and the Warrior is the Motorcycle tank. It is all about going up the ladder to a more powerful tank. It kinda dampens the play what you want element of the game.

[Phoenicia]

Snip.

The only time you'll give PLD self heals is if you give the other two tanks block and fix the disparity on WAR's received healing (Defiance is 20% heal increase, not 25%, and only affects spells, not abilities like Assize and Lustrate). WAR self healing is a compensatory thing as it receives less effective healing and has no passive mitigation from a shield. DRK has self healing also to cover the lack of shield, but to a lesser level than WAR because DRK receives the same effective healing as PLD. As far as self healing is concerned, it's quite balanced.

In my post, I was pointing out that WAR has all it needs to tank and all it needs to DPS and all it needs to switch between. Not only that, it has great synergy with other classes (other tanks and NIN). WAR doesn't care what the damage type is, it can mitigate it.

On the other hand, PLD has most of what it needs to tank (most power defensive CDs in the game) but suffers from aggro issues. It also has some of what it needs to DPS (Sword Oath is the most potent offensive stance), but has major TP issues and does not provide its own damage type resistance down (slashing debuff). It also has to deal with lots of "clunk" when it needs to switch between due to unnecessary MP costs on stances and them being on GCD. PLD also has the lowest aggro of the three tanks. As a matter of fact, PLD DPS potential suffers because of its aggro issues, having to use more Rage of Halone (weakest potency combo of all three classes) to compensate. PLD's "synergy" is with the healers but not to a noticeable extent. PLD has no particular synergy with the other tanks or DPS. PLD also has a whole set of "situational" CDs that may or may not see use.

DRK is a whole different can of worms. Its tanking suffers from self-conflicting tools. Evasion and Blind (while they reduce more damage than parry) conflict with DRK's parry as it has a lot of "procs" from it. Evasion and Blind also conflict with the MP regen of Blood Price. DRK has no reliable way of mitigating physical damage. And if tank busters are physical and frequent, DRK will incorporate LD into its CD rotation (Like how PLD uses HG), which is fine... but it puts additional stress on healers and forces ANOTHER "oh crap" button.

Now that we see how DRK has an "inconsistent" tanking set, let's look at its DPS tools. DRK has no "DPS stance" unlike Deliverance and Sword Oath. But it has a buff like Maim in the form of Darkside. Which is fine and dandy. DRK, like PLD, does not provide its own damage type resistance down either. DRK, even more so than PLD, suffer SERIOUS TP issues. DRK, to a lesser degree than PLD, also suffers "clunk" when it comes to stance switching.

DRK has absolutely no synergy with ANY other class. It actually has disynergy (if that's a word) with other classes (MNK just doesn't work with DRK). But then again, the class has no synergy with itself lol.

So yes, warrior, right now, is "how a tank should be". The other tanks should be raised to WAR's level, and not to take WAR down to PLD or DRK levels. To fix this, you don't have to slap what is on WAR to the other two tanks (self heals, SE/SP), homogenizing them in the process, but to have a broader look at their toolkits and what they offer the raid as a whole.

While you talked about the difficulty "ladder" of the three classes in comparison to "bikes", balancing a class based on difficulty is not always a good thing. Because people end up taking the most skilled players in the best performing class. Even though a high risk - high reward design is fun to have and gives incentive to have people try to master the harder classes. Basically, unless it is really difficult to get the perfect performance where the harder class performs much better than the easier one, where you are guaranteed that even the most skilled players will make mistakes, it is unhealthy to have performance tied to difficulty. Due to this game's nature, balance based on difficulty is really unhealthy. It was bad enough when MNK sat as the top DPS class for over a year and a half because SE considered it the most difficult class, even though many MNK players would tell you the rotation sinks into muscle memory VERY quickly and that "optimal performance" is commonly achievable. But this is not a post arguing/discussing MNK's difficulty.

A good example on difficulty ladder performance would be TERA. TERA had two tanking classes. They had varying difficulty and optimal performance. Lancer on average outperformed the warrior, but warrior "optimally" leaves a lancer in the dust.

The pure "shield" tank, the Lancer, and the "evasion" DPS hybrid, the warrior. A lancer is much easier to tank with as it has better aggro and defensive tools (A skill set dedicated to tanking). A good lancer will take minimal damage but because it is restricted to blocking attacks, they end up taking damage as some of the damage can go through the block threshold.

On the other hand, a warrior has a myriad of offensive and defensive skills (since it's a hybrid), resulting in more tank DPS, and if played perfectly, 0 damage taken as the warrior will block with "Cross-parry" most week attacks and completely evade any big hitters that may pass through the "block" threshold.

However, performance varies a lot based on player's reaction rather than a set scripted dance like FFXIV. Bosses in TERA, unlike this game, had no set "rotations" but had certain CDs on their abilities. The boss may throw any ability at you at any time, but once it is used, that ability won't be used again for a while (Minimum is the "CD", but can take longer). Bosses also "reacted" to players. For example if you have aggro but end up behind the boss somehow the boss will do a tail swipe. If you stun a boss AoE attack, it will do a breath attack instead. Or if an aggro switch happens, boss reacts with a spinning AoE attack. So the game was "less predictable" than FFXIV.

However, because there are no "set boss rotations" and there are many other elements like human error and resource management (block and dodge used an "Endurance" resource), it was almost impossible for warriors to reach that point where they deal more damage than lancer and still take 0 damage in return. In the end, even though warrior is a "better tank" in theory, it was never considered a better tank and, given the option, lancer was always taken over warrior for the tank spot.

[NFaelivrin]

It's pretty obvious to me they're not the number one choice for a mt anymore because drk is better in magic fights and they don't like not being that special snowflake anymore.

The fact that people think this is the problem is hilarious, it doesn't even actually merit this response because its the absolutely most banal and stupid way you can look at tank balance and frankly it contributes so little that the greatest favor you could do us all would be to take this nonsense out of our collective sight. I'll give you a few hints since you seem to be so thick: The general complaints are that PLD is considered a suboptimal choice in any tank role for the majority of Alexander Savage, suboptimal, as in, you're better off not taking a PLD at all, as in "don't play PLD in Savage unless you want to be a burden to your team". "Special snowflake", please, PLD was never the mandatory MT even in 2.XX except in the mind of people who never looked objectively at WAR's tanking toolkit after 2.1, and even if PLD had been the "mandatory main tank" before, that's not what people want, what people want is for the class to not be dead weight in the current raid environment. Does that make sense to you? Or do I need to put it in simpler words?