Don't you think the different between Def of Pld/War is so little compare to dps?

[Alise]

So far, anything that Pld can handle, is also proven that War can handle.
Pld HG is better than War HG, but Pld HG has 2x cool down longer, so War can use more often.

their buff are very similar, as Pld has Sentinel, but War has less cool down and more buff to cover himself. In the end, their defensive power is on par.

Then why the different between dps of a War and a Pld is so big ? I think that if War always keep up to Pld on defensive then Pld suppose to keep up to War on offensive also!

(War DPS can go up to 900 on 2 min dummy.)

Happy that Pld got some more dmg skills, but then I heard War get even better ones to make more different than before so the gap on dps become larger while the gap on defend buff remain the same.

I do not mind the different, but I think the different between dps should be the same as different between survivability. If War has so much dps more than Pld, then Pld should have so much survivability than War. If Pld has only little survivability than War, then War should have only little more dps than Pld.

[Phoenicia]

Oh another one of these threads. For crying out loud.

Okay, so you want WAR to be unable to handle some fights since it does slightly more DPS than PLD? Then why not change WAR icon from blue to red and call it "DPS".

If a tank cannot tank all fights, there is no point of it being a tank. PLD still takes hits better than WAR. The fact that healers need to heal the PLD less than WAR is proof enough.

Hallowed Ground is 5 times better than Holmgang. It having twice the CD is still unfair.

PLD DPS isn't so low, it's only 8% less than WAR.

Also you only parse 900 on a dummy? Your WAR has a serious case of gitgud. Also check this video.

What DPS skills are you talking about? WAR should've always had Deliverance. WAR was supposed to be the DPS tank since 2.1, but PLD had Sword Oath and WAR had nothing. What gap are you talking about? Are you saying WAR did more DPS than PLD in 2.5? Because that's not true, PLD in Sword Oath did the same or more DPS than WAR without Defiance.

WAR's strongest attack before 3.0 was Inner Beast (300 potency) and WAR couldn't use it when it tried to DPS (by dropping Defiance). Now instead of having WAR use such a strong defensive ability while DPSing, (if WAR used IB in Deliverance, there is no point in having Defiance), they gave WAR a stronger attack (Fell Cleave) with no defensive effects.

This thread is so full of wrong and should just die. Honestly.

[wolfhaken]

Everytime i peek into a tank debate, there you are phoenicia lol

[Phoenicia]

Everytime i peek into a tank debate, there you are phoenicia lol

Because it's getting ridiculous.

I mean look at this guy! He wants there to be situations where ONLY Paladin can defend but the other tanks should literally die because they do 70 more DPS! I mean I would understand that if WAR and DRK could fill the same spot of actual DPS classes. But they don't! As long as WAR and DRK tags and icons are blue (tanks) they should be able to tank ALL things in all situations as long as they can get heals.

[Anger]

Because it's getting ridiculous.

Your percentage of difference between a Paladin DPS and Warrior DPS is incorrect. There is greater than 8% difference. You may rely on smacking a dummy for three minutes but a PLD will fizzle out very fast in a longer fight while the Warrior has little trouble maintaining TP.

At the end of the fight the final numbers will be much greater than 8%. People keep throwing out these weird percentages, 5%, 8%, without basis. But you really need to look at the final figures for a Savage encounter. If the difference was so minimal, people wouldn't care what tanks they brought in world firsts groups.

[Phoenicia]

Your percentage of difference between a Paladin DPS and Warrior DPS is incorrect. There is greater than 8% difference. You may rely on smacking a dummy for three minutes but a PLD will fizzle out very fast in a longer fight while the Warrior has little trouble maintaining TP.

At the end of the fight the final numbers will be much greater than 8%. People keep throwing out these weird percentages, 5%, 8%, without basis. But you really need to look at the final figures for a Savage encounter. If the difference was so minimal, people wouldn't care what tanks they brought in world firsts groups.

"Smacking a dummy for three minutes" is "Dealing maximum damage in optimal environments". Compared to a real fight, you will always do LESS damage. So if at maximum damage a WAR is barely 80 DPS ahead of PLD, any non-optimal fight, the WAR will be less than that ahead of a PLD. That's how MATH works.

In real encounters, bosses jump and go invulnerable and put things on you so you can't attack, etc. You will have downtime, if you have downtime, TP recovers. Any downtime happening while FoF is on CD is beneficial to your overall DPS. FoF is the best DPS CD in the game, it's better than even Berserk in terms of overall DPS.

So no, my percentages aren't off. And they ARE with basis, check the video I linked! Your comment, on the other hand, is definitely without basis. Show me a video proving that a PLD doing optimal rotation is more than 8% behind WAR.

As a matter of fact, this video linked by Shinzee shows an actual fight where WAR is only 60 DPS ahead of PLD while the PLD was MT'ing most of the fight.

Snip..

Clearing T6/7 and T10/11 two weeks after patch is clearing content with a better weapon and ilv than the groups clearing on first week. If you check videos of first clears, you will see that healers and tanks optimized DPS.

As I told Anger and showed in the video I linked, WAR isn't so far ahead of the other tanks. It's like 80 DPS difference in maxed environments between WAR and PLD and DRK is somewhere in between.

PLD mitigates a lot more than DRK and WAR in almost every encounter. The only exception is A4 where DRK mitigates slightly more than PLD. Check this analysis. It bringing more utility is a plus.

This whole issue of PLD doing less DPS is a knee-jerk reaction of the world first two groups clearing A3S switching PLD with DRK BECAUSE they wanted to switch MNK with NIN for Trick Attack which led to more raid DPS. They would've switched DRG but DRG is highest DPS and Battle Litany is overpowered.

Let this topic die. It's retarded.

[Croisciento]

Clearing T6/7 and T10/11 two weeks after patch is clearing content with a better weapon and ilv than the groups clearing on first week

What are you talking about? I'm talking about my group. When we cleared T6 and T7 my whole group only had ilvl 95 weapons, we would only had access to better weapon once we cleared T7. Same goes for T10 and 11. Never did our healers were forced to DPS on these fights nor tanks to drop their tanking stance and we still managed to clear them without facing the enrage. We only really looked at crafted gear later for things like T12 when we realized it would make things a lot easier if we could grab more gear. As for T8 bringing another DPS solved our issues right away, didn't even have to pick up crated gear.

My statement was about groups thinking if there's a good reason to not pick a warrior which is no. Right now all the tanks are required to drop their tanking stance if possible and even if you have your shield you are almost as hard to heal as a warrior. Perfect conditions means you either have a NIN or a WAR applying the debuff on your target which is obviously not always the case.

Yes the difference in maxed environments is not that big, I never said so. I stated that by not bringing a war to your group your overall dps will be signicantly lower and if tanks are dropping their stance to dps i'd rather choose one that does more dps.

My point is I wouldn't give a damn about dps if the encounters didn't ask so much to start with. Yes even 80 dps is huge. My group is running PLD/DRK without a NIN and we wiped so many times at 2% before getting a clear. We eventually got it, that does mean it's doable (never said it wasnt like many seem to claim) but its harder and I can understand why groups would want to make fights easier by having more dps.

[Tide]

Everytime i peek into a tank debate, there you are phoenicia lol

My thoughts exactly! Lol though always welcome

[wolfhaken]

In reality though most of the expert players can play their tank roles as DPS and put out better numbers than DPS.

Im stating this because the general population flock to DPS roles because they dont have to learn much. While the veterans play more than one class to learn the ins and outs of other classes they play with, wether it be them or another player, when it comes down to it all these Tank forums are really about player skill vs player skill, of set roles.

[Seku]

I can only really see a PLD fizziling out if there is a consistent up time. Haven't done savage, but normal mode there are quite a few battle phase switch times where PLD's have a fuck ton of time to regain their TP. But I'd still want Shield swipe to get off GCD. Lower potency and restore a small bit of TP with each use for more MT damage and consistent up time while being MT.