Can you Devs please pay close attention to pvp dps

[RiceisNice]

But the power and versatility given by their burst combo is all they have going for them.
Remove or lower it and SMN won't be picked anymore.

The same can be said for BRD and MCH outside of their burst as well. Their sustained is incredibly unreliable due to range penalty, one way or the other (low damage without WM/GB, unable to adjust real-time with GB/WM).

Summoners can interrupt and harass to a lesser extent of the ranged classes via ruin II and pets (which means that their burst combo isn't all they have going for them), their DoT damage is relatively there and at least it's consistent, especially when chasing down someone and having access to traited virus on enemy healers to cut down healing even more with DE/SE.

And having that sort of burst is still among a factor in seal rock (which honestly is the only pvp content that's active across the board), esp when it comes to getting BH/BF kills.

And so they have to hide behind their human shields and shine in group fights. I do a lot of PvP per week, you can check it out on the lodestone. From experience there's only a few SMNs who willingly get into melee range, most either end up dead or sent running away instead. If a DRG/MNK is right beside me with Fetter Ward up in a 1v1, then most of the time it was my carelessness and I deserved to be killed, simple as that. Even if our damage is 100% at melee range, there's little you can do to a raging melee who can stun/pacify and burst better than a MCH/BRD.

There's a difference between getting into melee range with a melee class, and melee range with a MCH/BRD. Assuming that it's a 1v1, it's in their best advantage to stay as close to the MCH/BRD as possible. In any other environment (like seal rock), you're going to have to weight the risks vs the reward. Will it get you a kill? Will you die for it? Is it going to garunteed you a BH/BF kill? My example is in perspective against a SMN, not so much a melee (which I'm going to do everything inl my power to bail out of that fight, because the small advantage I have over a SMN is not present against a melee, esp the DRGs, their physical defense)

there we go with the 1v1 scenario again the best kind of scenario that happens a lot of times, amirite?

This happens very rarely in seal rock when you're scouting for new spawns to converge at. But even then it's not a true 1v1 scenario; there's the factor of who gets the jump first and the environment itself if there are corners to turn or highground.

[Sunako]

Summoners can interrupt and harass to a lesser extent of the ranged classes via ruin II and pets

Pet do not interrupt casts if you do not crit with it. You have enough time cast cures between ruin casts unlike between bard/mch skills and auto attacks. And do you wanna talk next how many interrupt summoner have against equanimity and surecast? mch have stun, knockback, silence for it. What summoner have? garuda knockback or ifrit stun these are really hard use between opponent casts?

If you only look damage numbers, you will never understand how pvp balance works.

[RiceisNice]

Pet do not interrupt casts if you do not crit with it. You have enough time cast cures between ruin casts unlike between bard/mch skills and auto attacks. And do you wanna talk next how many interrupt summoner have against equanimity and surecast? mch have stun, knockback, silence for it. What summoner have? garuda knockback or ifrit stun these are really hard use between opponent casts?

If you only look damage numbers, you will never understand how pvp balance works.

I've gotten interrupted by non-crit wind blades from a garuda egi, so *shrug*. And even then, I wasn't saying that summoner is near the effective ability of a MCH/BRD for interrupting, but that they can.

And I've never argued that the numbers was the issue. but how it occurs in a pvp setting and how much it matters in the currently only frontlines map that's active.

[Fyce]

there we go with the 1v1 scenario again the best kind of scenario that happens a lot of times, amirite?

Let me rephrase without using the "1v1" term you despise.

"If a job is worse than every other job in comparison, nobody will play it".

The same can be said for BRD and MCH outside of their burst as well. Their sustained is incredibly unreliable due to range penalty, one way or the other (low damage without WM/GB, unable to adjust real-time with GB/WM).

Summoners can interrupt and harass to a lesser extent of the ranged classes via ruin II and pets (which means that their burst combo isn't all they have going for them), their DoT damage is relatively there and at least it's consistent, especially when chasing down someone and having access to traited virus on enemy healers to cut down healing even more with DE/SE.

And having that sort of burst is still among a factor in seal rock (which honestly is the only pvp content that's active across the board), esp when it comes to getting BH/BF kills.

As Sunako said, SMN don't interrupt, so your point here is moot. It's the case since they changed the damage type.

Then, no, chasing someone with Bio/Ruin II isn't a thing. Plus, you'd have to cast your other DoT to an already fleeing enemy... which doesn't happen that often. Besides, this can be achieved by every job, SMN don't have the exclusivity of low HP finishers.

Again, no, DoT damage very rarely leads to a kill. It takes quite a lot of condition for that to happen, and it's even less reliable since the purify buff.

I also want to say that pet micro management in PvP is quite hard to pull, very unreliable and doesn't give good results at all. At best, it's a weak harassing tool that you can get rid of by walking a bit backward if the SMN isn't paying much attention.


Whatever the case, I still don't clearly see what you want. I'm still saying that if you nerf the only strength of a job, nobody will play it anymore.
So, please, tell us what kind of changes it would take not to make that happen without going full revamp on the job.

[Tsuole]

With regards to:

"Whatever the case, I still don't clearly see what you want. I'm still saying that if you nerf the only strength of a job, nobody will play it anymore."

Queue Bard and Mechanist damage reduction.

Also if you have been keeping up with the conversation so far, which you should do so, the problem is Summoners are the best at too many things. If we viewed the potential of each class based on a stat graph with criteria such as - kill potential, sustain, damage potential, survivability, cc), summoners would cumulatively score higher than any other class in the game currently.

Many classes have to cope with being second best. According to the research I've done there is no reason to play, in comparison to a summoner, a Black Mage in PVP.

Apart from having sleep, they are inferior to Summoners in every way. Is it so injust to balance the oh-so-helpless summoners so they fall in line with other classes who get by being second-rate at most of the things they do?

[Tsuole]

Also, everyone needs to stop using the 1v1 scenario (like you are suggesting) to compare the value of one class to another. Are healers useless because they can/cannot win most 1v1 scenarios? Lets look to some other PVP games outside of FFXIV since characters in this game don't offer much in unique UTILITY.

In League of Legends, is a support character (I don't know. Pick any one) 'worse' than another because it cannot emerge victorious without using the 1v1 scenario people are using to judge classes against each other?

Is a damage dealer who cannot win against the enemy damage dealer 1-1 more useless, even if they posses unique abilities which can win team fights as opposed to singular 1-1 battles?

[RiceisNice]

...

I've gotten interrupted by both scatches from a blm and pet damage from either a egi or turret while casting on GB, unless it's something exclusive to ruin/ruin II not interrupting. Speaking on that end, while those scenarios rarely happen, they still do. As for changes, it'd be nice for it to at least not chunk any non-tank classes, including the casters themselves who have an innately low hp pool by comparison. Physical burst is very much less effective on a DRG, so-so on everyone else, but mostly reliable on casters if you want a sure-kill. Combine that with other abilities like traited virus to dampen heals, an AoE bind, and a semi reliable knockback/stun (and interrupts if you choose to believe me or not).


It mostly has to do with the environment we're placed in, and we're been back to back that PvP content is mostly an afterthought for PvP, but for the sake of discussion, SMNs are still one of the better classes to have on board for seal rock.

Queue Bard and Mechanist damage reduction.

This has always been in place to offset 100% interrupts in PvP from any direct damage and that the class can effectively kite. It only became a problem later down the road when it came to objective-based frontlines and expanded abilities in general where the jobs need to use GB/WM to keep up with damage and in a sense, all the drawbacks of playing a caster (interrupted cast times and non-motile dps)

Many classes have to cope with being second best. According to the research I've done there is no reason to play, in comparison to a summoner, a Black Mage in PVP.

You still don't want to class stack (with the exception of astro to a lesser degree). While SMNs are among the stronger of the classes, you're forging other CCs which includes sleep from BLM, stuns from all the melee classes, and of course hp boost from a tank. BLMs are also far better at defending high ground nodes than SMN, what a SMN does in a burst is the norm for a BLM that's given the chance.

But in the environment of seal rock, that's only the case less than half of the time. Not all nodes are high ground and this is strictly from a defensive standpoint. You don't want to emphasize on one area, but you definitely do not want to forego other options; Ranged still has reliable burst against non-drg and the best interrupt/harass against the enemy casters, melee has their own categories of CC that isn't shared with casters (and often is necessary to kill a healer, especially the astros)

[Akiza]

Summoners aren't a monster dps thats invincible and can't be killed. Most players just ignore Summoners and hope they don't get noticed by them. I played PvP a few times today and I had Dark Knights and Ninjas running pass me while I was free casting on DoTs on their entire party. The truth is Summoners are last on the attack list so most of the time we do whatever we want. Everyone knows as soon as Summoner gets one good hit they run away.

[Februs]

Most players just ignore Summoners and hope they don't get noticed by them. I played PvP a few times today and I had Dark Knights and Ninjas running pass me while I was free casting on DoTs on their entire party. The truth is Summoners are last on the attack list so most of the time we do whatever we want. Everyone knows as soon as Summoner gets one good hit they run away.

SMN's provide an endless amount of entertainment to me for this reason.They make #1 on my hit list when I see them. I prioritize the death of an enemy SMN even over that of a enemy healer. They are super squishy, so the stun and spank is extra satisfying, and, even if you don't get them and they run away, it's funny to watch them scurry in a blind panic when chunks of their health start to fall off.

You're right, though. For the most part I see a lot of SMN's running around undisturbed because people are either ignoring them or just too damn scared to attack them, making endless excuses and calling them OP. It's silly. In any other PvP game I've played, in any genre, High Dmg/Low health characters like SMN's would be priority targets (play any shooter as a Sniper, for example, and see what happens to you). In this game, people just sit back, watch em' go crazy, and then complain about the aftermath. Such a weird player base.

[Aphel]

Most players just ignore Summoners and hope they don't get noticed by them.

Not sure if this is specific to server groups but in Elemental, SMNs are always at the top of the list. If someone's commanding, that targeting symbol will almost always pop over a SMNs head, followed by MNKs for some reason.