Tank Balance

[RecklessLion]

Things as they are now is a compromise, this much is true, but there is at least plenty of room for serious tanks to differentiate themselves from the more casual ones. It works even if it's not to your taste.

You couldn't of said that better. I fully agree with your comments! It compromise for the most part in trying to keep casual players well casual tanks and not wait till the next day in hopes of a tank. I don't think SE is in the middle they plan this out well. Forces people to go outside the box. Now this would be a major problem if you could only be one class and have to recreate a character just to remain relevant during gameplay. The best changes I can thinkn of adding content where all tanks can be relevant. One with dps checks another with a great need of defense, another with insane mechanics to keep you on your toes. That way all three tanks are utilized and no one get left behind.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

=D

There is never a way to ignore the damage penalty.

It is always full damage - 20%.

130% damage - 20% = 104% normal damage.

120% damage - 20%. = 96% normal damage.

115% damage - 20% = 92% normal damage.

100% damage - 20%. = 80%.

The 20% from maim for example is really only 16% more damage. The 15% is really only 12%.

[RecklessLion]

A good testing ground for a player's mindset is their reaction to getting the various new skills. Most aggressive WARs I know were just jumping for joy when they got Fell Cleave, and couldnt resist running around and bragging about how big a crit they just got against a gaelicat or something. Whereas I was like... meh.. just does damage, whatever.

Funny!! I was one of those warriors running around for looking things to cleave once I got it. I've always love playing brute like characters so that made my day!!

[Gooner_iBluAirJGR]

Funny!! I was one of those warriors running around for looking things to cleave once I got it.

When I first learned Fell Cleave, I was on skype with a group of buddies and my first words were "they're gona nerf the hell out of this skill" lol. Ahhh sweet sweet memories.

#Launch

[SpookyGhost]

I love Fell Cleave, don't get me wrong, but my favorite skill to get was definitely Equilibrium. Seeing that heal for the first time... and testing out the TP restore in AOE situations... so good. Soooo good.

[Phoenicia]

A good testing ground for a player's mindset is their reaction to getting the various new skills.

Thing was, when PLDs got Sheltron, WAR's reaction was: "Meh, we have Inner Beast". All that the PLD got was things WAR already "had" and the PLD was "hurting for".

But yeah, active mitigation can go very far. For example: Let PLD have more abilities that increase block temporarily or otherwise reduce damage. WAR's form of active mitigation would be reducing damage taken through offense. Either by generating barriers or healing post-fact.

[Alahra]

WAR is the "DPS" tank, so the "serious tanks that like to DPS" will probably go WAR. Since PLD is the "Defensive" tank, let it be the "active defensive tank". This way, every serious tanks can be pleased (Well not every...but more of them).
As for "casual" tanks, they'll just play any tank they want without pushing them to their limit.

That's certainly true to a degree (though things like class flavor and the like factor into people's choices as well). I don't foresee them making PLD significantly more complex, though, either through DPS or more active mitigation as it's also the "gateway" tank. With the lowest skill barrier of the three, it's the easiest for someone new to tanking to pick up and use, and even perhaps to enjoy all the way to 60. Granted, they've shown willingness to change simple gameplay styles (BLM from ARR to HW changed significantly, for instance), so it's something that could happen in the future.

Got to agree with Reynhart.

A good testing ground for a player's mindset is their reaction to getting the various new skills. Most aggressive WARs I know were just jumping for joy when they got Fell Cleave... -snip- On the contrary, when I got Sheltron I was over the moon...

It's funny, actually. I prefer defensive tanking (well, I prefer avoidance tanking, but that's not a solid design avenue in games like these), and I've always preferred PLD to WAR, but I just can't get excited for PLD anymore. I think leveling DRK first killed it for me, as it's a bit more active, and that's made PLD feel really boring now. It's unfortunate because in terms of flavor, PLD is my preferred tank, but gameplay wise, I'm having a hard time enjoying it now. Fell Cleave excites me enough that I'm leveling WAR occasionally when I get bored, but it took me forever to push PLD from 52-54, as Shelltron left me really unexcited. I'm not looking forward to anything on it ability wise, sadly.

[carbonx]

There is never a way to ignore the damage penalty.

Unchained: Nullifies the damage penalty inflicted by Defiance for 20s.

Inner Beast: Delivers an attack with a potency of 300.
Ignores the 25% damage penalty inflicted by Defiance.

Just saying.

[Phoenicia]

There is never a way to ignore the damage penalty.

Snip.

You two are arguing simantics, lol. You both are correct.

What Carbonx is trying to say is that WAR and DRK have ways to "mitigate" the damage penalty of their tank stances while PLD doesn't. It doesn't have to be completely negated, or otherwise, "ignored" to be considered mitigated.

A more correct way to look at it is to say that DRK and WAR have constant damage buffs to increase their base damage while PLD doesn't. PLD's offensive stance damage comes entirely from the stance itself.

But as long as, while in a tank stance, you do not get the full benefit of your damage had you not been in said stance, you are not completely "ignoring" it. Defiance + Maim is still less damage than no defiance and Maim.

And again, Defiance WAR deals more damage than Shield Oath PLD because of Maim, not Unchained. Unchained is just the icing on the cake. We could argue WAR deals more MT damage than DRK because of Unchained.

[Ladon]

There is never a way to ignore the damage penalty.

It is always full damage - 20%.

130% damage - 20% = 104% normal damage.

120% damage - 20%. = 96% normal damage.

115% damage - 20% = 92% normal damage.

100% damage - 20%. = 80%.

The 20% from maim for example is really only 16% more damage. The 15% is really only 12%.

I'm pretty sure this isn't right.

Damage enhancements and reductions seem to be additive, not multiplicative(at least that's what the formulas here are pointing to currently though it's still difficult to determine exactly because of the complexity of the damage formula chain) where mitigation skills are multiplicative.

That means for example if you are at 100% damage + 15% Darkside - 20% from Grit, your effective damage is 95%.

However if you stack Sword oath + Rampart + Sentinel the mitigation is multiplicative at 68.9% mitigation.