Tank Balance

[carbonx]

Sapphidia basically explained my point in different view, but it also brings up the interesting question of why Paladin's DPS is so low comparatively.

As I stated earlier in the thread, PLD is the only class without an ability that directly counteracts the damage penalty brought on by remaining in their tank stance. DRK has Darkside, WAR has Unchained and IB. Paladin technically has FoF, but it neither ignores the damage penalty or has close to full uptime. So, before you even get into combo potencies, PLD is already at a disadvantage in damage. This problem with DPS output is only reflected in their struggle for enmity generation.

They are forced into using Halone, lowering their DPS more. SE is currently trying to justify this unbalance in DPS through the use of party support skills, but ultimately, is it enough to warrant the loss of DPS inherent to bringing a PLD?

[Phoenicia]

..DRK has Darkside, WAR has Unchained and IB.

Just wanted to point out WAR's Defiance penalty reducing effect are not Unchained and IB, it's Maim. Grit + Darkside puts DRK at 92% of base unbuffed damage, Defiance + Maim puts WAR at 90% of base damage. Unchained is more akin to FoF (33% up by ignoring the 25% penalty for 20s). IB/SC ignoring the damage is not enough to offset the penalty. All wrath spenders causing WAR to ignore defiance penalty is just the icing on the cake.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

=D

There is never a way to ignore the damage penalty.

It is always full damage - 20%.

130% damage - 20% = 104% normal damage.

120% damage - 20%. = 96% normal damage.

115% damage - 20% = 92% normal damage.

100% damage - 20%. = 80%.

The 20% from maim for example is really only 16% more damage. The 15% is really only 12%.

[carbonx]

There is never a way to ignore the damage penalty.

Unchained: Nullifies the damage penalty inflicted by Defiance for 20s.

Inner Beast: Delivers an attack with a potency of 300.
Ignores the 25% damage penalty inflicted by Defiance.

Just saying.

[Phoenicia]

There is never a way to ignore the damage penalty.

Snip.

You two are arguing simantics, lol. You both are correct.

What Carbonx is trying to say is that WAR and DRK have ways to "mitigate" the damage penalty of their tank stances while PLD doesn't. It doesn't have to be completely negated, or otherwise, "ignored" to be considered mitigated.

A more correct way to look at it is to say that DRK and WAR have constant damage buffs to increase their base damage while PLD doesn't. PLD's offensive stance damage comes entirely from the stance itself.

But as long as, while in a tank stance, you do not get the full benefit of your damage had you not been in said stance, you are not completely "ignoring" it. Defiance + Maim is still less damage than no defiance and Maim.

And again, Defiance WAR deals more damage than Shield Oath PLD because of Maim, not Unchained. Unchained is just the icing on the cake. We could argue WAR deals more MT damage than DRK because of Unchained.

[Ladon]

There is never a way to ignore the damage penalty.

It is always full damage - 20%.

130% damage - 20% = 104% normal damage.

120% damage - 20%. = 96% normal damage.

115% damage - 20% = 92% normal damage.

100% damage - 20%. = 80%.

The 20% from maim for example is really only 16% more damage. The 15% is really only 12%.

I'm pretty sure this isn't right.

Damage enhancements and reductions seem to be additive, not multiplicative(at least that's what the formulas here are pointing to currently though it's still difficult to determine exactly because of the complexity of the damage formula chain) where mitigation skills are multiplicative.

That means for example if you are at 100% damage + 15% Darkside - 20% from Grit, your effective damage is 95%.

However if you stack Sword oath + Rampart + Sentinel the mitigation is multiplicative at 68.9% mitigation.

[Phoenicia]

I'm pretty sure this isn't right.

That means for example if you are at 100% damage + 15% Darkside - 20% from Grit, your effective damage is 95%.

However if you stack Sword oath + Rampart + Sentinel the mitigation is multiplicative at 68.9% mitigation.

That formula is old and probably wrong. According to t hat formula berserk is 40% increase. But it actually is 50%.

There is a more accurate formula found on this page: https://dervyxiv.wordpress.com/2015/...r-the-dragoon/

Damage increasing buffs do stack multiplicatively.

Quoting from the website:

So, here’s the Updated Models, which, are a WIP:

Weapon Skills:
((Potency*0.01005)*(WD*0.0400573+1)*(STR*0.1104171)*(DET*0.0001368+1)*BUFFS)-1

Auto-Attacks:
((WD*0.0319937+1)*(STR*0.1387779)*(*DET*0.0001513+1)*BUFFS)-1

Skillspeed Mod for DoTs:
(1+(skillspeed-354)*0.0001285) – Note, this fits into the Buffs section.