Tank Balance

[Nektulos-Tuor]

Hey guys, although I only started playing on HW launch day, I have played MMOs for over a decade and witnessed various types of mechanics and trinity balance. I also have extensive experience on all 3 roles of the Trinity and this is what I feel about PLD in this game. From my research and perspective, I feel PLD is designed to shut down physical damage, thus establish itself as the mitigation tank. Well, agreeing with other posters above, I too feel PLD is not "unique" in its own way. However, rather than looking at ways to tweak, active skills, I thought maybe we can take a look at "Traits", ie. PASSIVE skills. My ideas are as follows:

Enhanced Flash: This trait is unique to GLA/PLD and I feel it is not unique enough. Instead of just giving them somewhat lackluster Blind, Enhanced Flash allows Blind to be applied on ANY targets, including bosses, and let it not have diminishing return. Yes, this does mean you can permanently Blind a boss, which gives PLD more reason to use their mana bar and allow them to choose between dealing damage or mitigate damage. In order for this to be not abused to be I-WIN button for aggro generation, make it so that only when Blind was applied by PLD for the first time it generates aggro.

As long as it also blinds your group or everyone around you who is looking towards you as well as a balance.

Changes to Shield Swipe and it's synergy : Remove the enmity part of Shield Swipe, make it 45 sec CD and oGCD. Create a new Trait, something like Enhanced Shield Swipe. This new traits will have 15% chance of reseting Shield Swipe CD upon a BLOCK and does double the potency. This will give PLD a chance to use Bulwark and Sheldtron(sp?) offensively. Also gives leveling PLD a chances to solo kill mobs faster.

This would be an amazing skill but it should keep the TP cost and its potency should be lowered to 50-100. A free 420 potency attack that can proc over and over? R U NUTZ? Dark Arts+Carve and Spit is only 400 potency and costs over half the DRKs Mana.

Imagine turning off shield oath and using using Sheltron + Bulwark + FoF with it... Burning down a boss...

Clemency: Change it to 10min CD, oGCD and cost no mana to use. It's effect would be healing the target for maximum of the PLD's hp, but puts a debuff on the target that last 3min, preventing Clemency to be used on the same target again for the duration. That way 2 PLDs cannot immortalize a target by stacking their Clemencies.

Why? Its just a full heal. WHMs can do that every few seconds and bosses just hit through it. I'd rather Clemency be as it is.

With these proposal, I hope to make PLD make some tanking choices. They can keep using RoH to generate aggro, or spend Flash to mitigate damage, choose to use Bulwark/Sheldtron for dps gain, while Clemency will be the panic button in case of emergencies. Please, evaluate on my ideas, will these work in FF14?

My responses.. in RED and Green.

[Heavensword]

Thats a bit much HG doesn't even take that long. Besides I rely on this heavily for boss fights running solo dungeons.

Pretty sure when games comes around to balance issue, the ability to solo a dungeon boss is on the very bottom of their priority list. However, if that is truly your concern, do note that I also thought about future contents when I came up with my ideas. Right now, tanks are already pushing 20k in terms of HP levels, should this idea is implemented a PLD can instantly heal 30 or even 40k+ in one go. It will save your WHM his/her Benediction; which brings out PLD's idea of utility.

My responses.. in RED and Green.

Can you explain to me, why would you have my proposed Flash also blinds my own group? As far as I notice, Blind is not such a earth-shattering effect that being able to apply it permanently on a boss merits crippling my own team too. All I see it, it is simply an Accuracy Down. How is that different than permanent STR down or slashing debuff?

I agree on some points about my proposed Shield Swipe. Of course, keeping of the TP cost is implied and maybe even limiting the proc effects that it will only activates while under Shield Oath. I do disagree,however, on reducing its potency. As I said before, the suppose effect only has 15% (adjustable after testing, of course) to activate on a BLOCK. Your " Sheltron, Bulwark, FoF" argument is exactly one of my predicted answer. Even though you boost your own block chance, that doesn't mean you are given a proc. Bosses auto are slow enough that even with Bulwark, the idea is your Shield Swipe will only proc twice (or 3 times if you are lucky) over the course of the duration. As for the rest of the time, the TP cost will be the limiting factor to prevent "proc spamming".

I admit, I do not have too good of argument for Clemency. Personally, I feel it is a rather awkward skill. True, my proposed change is just a "Benediction copy" of WHM, but as I said to Eye-gore above, this was simply my attempt to provide PLD further utility in case the raid group doesn't have access to a WHM. Besides, I won't call "300 sec CD" on Benediction "every few sec".
----
Again, I would appreciate further comments about my ideas. And thank you for those offering theirs.

[HoodRat]

all of those situation, if you play like should made no a single difference if you use it or not. like I said only serve to be lazy not real usefulness to the class or the party just....prevent for giving a few steps back IF YOU PLAY CORRECTLY if it saves your life or your life depens on this ability then "git gud"

You strike me as a person who would rather stab himself in the eye if it meant you didn't have to dps as a tank. All this "I'm a tank I can't do damage it's against the law" nonsense is really getting annoying.

[NFaelivrin]

You strike me as a person who would rather stab himself in the eye if it meant you didn't have to dps as a tank. All this "I'm a tank I can't do damage it's against the law" nonsense is really getting annoying.

How in the world does thinking Tempered Will is an useless skill that's extremely situational at best imply that the person you're quoting doesn't want to ever DPS as a tank. Did you even read the post.

[HoodRat]

How in the world does thinking Tempered Will is an useless skill that's extremely situational at best imply that the person you're quoting doesn't want to ever DPS as a tank. Did you even read the post.

He said tempered will's only purpose is to allow people to be lazy. Clearly you didn't read the post, let alone understand it.

[Rexus]

I've got a few suggestions/thoughts on how to alter tanks, some of these have already been said so I'll just echo them in agreement.

Global Tank Changes

-Possibly make VIT the attack modifier for tanks instead of STR.
Reason: There has already been debate after debate of STR vs VIT stacking for tanks, when one should have never arisen in the first place. I'm not sure on what the proper values would have to be, but remove STR from the attack modifier for tanks, and replace it with VIT. I can't see any reason why this would be unwanted as DPS tanks will be left unchanged, and turtle tanks will only become more "powerful".

-Add VIT into the damage taken formula. Ex: Increase DEF/M.DEF, give bonuses to resistance, etc...whatever is most "balanced".
Reason: I would only submit this idea if the one above didn't pass, as it would definitely start getting into overpowered territory... Anyways, if the effects of STR on tanks is left unchanged, I feel a boost to the effectiveness of VIT on tanks should be added. This boost should be significant enough for tanks to truly go into turtle mode, and allow healers more freedom than they already do IMO. Create a combo of DPS tanks + sub optimal DPS healers or Turtle tanks + 99% uptime DPS healers.

Paladin Changes

-Increase Shield Oath enmity modifier.
Reason: It's been stated before, but PLD's have lower enmity generation and obviously lower burst enmity generation. Increasing the potency or enmity mods of Savage/Rage would also help, but there has been the argument of that hurting threat management when off tanking.. which is true to some extent. I think it would still be easier for all parties involved if Shield Oath was improved instead of changing Savage/Rage themselves.

-Change Tempered Will to give a TP restore effect instead of its current use.
Reason: The remove bind/heavy and ignore knockback are cool, sure. Yes they do have their niche uses. However, PLD desperately needs a TP restore more than they need what tempered will currently is.

-Spirits Within ignores damage penalty while in Shield Oath.
-Spirits Within has an increased critical hit rate while in Sword Oath.
Reason: The first is to help with burst and overall enmity generation. The second is to give a minor boost to DPS.

-Royal Authority potency lowered to 280, now lowers targets damage dealt by 10% for 20 seconds. Now combos off Riot Blade.
Reason: First, I thought it was fairly boring/bland to give PLD a combo that just did a little more DPS than what they've been using for 2 years. Second, I felt WAR shouldn't have a monopoly on the 'path' debuff, so here we are. The combo off of Riot Blade will be needed for my change to Clemency.

-Clemency cast time reduced to 1.5s. Potency lowered to 600. MP cost lowered by 50%. Additional effect: Critical casts lower Divine Veil recast by xx (10-20?) seconds.
Reason: I really want to like Clemency as it is. However, due to constant interrupts, huge MP cost, and the extreme likelihood that your cast will just result in a over heal, it simply does not work in endgame content. The base changes to the spell itself would hopefully let you make use of it just in a healing sense. The additional effect would be the something 'extra' to make it more unique and add to another one of PLD's new skills.

-Divine Veil barrier changed to a determination buff. The buff potency scales with the casters weapon damage.
Reason: I felt the support provided by DV's barrier effect wasn't that "powerful". This is also the age where DPS is king, so I figured PLD's being able to improve party DPS would be a nice utility.

-Shield Swipe recast changed to 30 seconds, instant cast/no TP. Additional effect changed to: lowers targets accuracy for 10 seconds.
Reason: It's been stated before, but shield swipe is mostly useless now. I thought this change wouldn't be too powerful, but it would still keep it in the "I should use this" category. The idea for this would be, use shelltron, get proc, use swipe, start using clemency/stoneskin.

-Circle of Scorn potency increased to 200, DoT removed. Recast increased to 30 seconds.
Reason: See Bulwark below.

-Bulwark to add an additional effect: While bulwark is active, each block has a chance to lower circle of scorn recast.
Reason: PLD is terrible in the AoE DPS department, this would (occasionally) help during large pulls, and be extra fluff for single target encounters.

-Flash, let blind work on higher tier bosses.
Reason: C'mon : (

Warrior Changes

-Fracture DoT potency increased to 30/tic and/or gives a stack of Wrath/Abandon.
Reason: Using fracture outside of the uber burst rotation is kind of a wash atm. It slows down IB/FC use, and it's just odd that it costs more TP and does less damage than the DRK counterpart Scourge.

-Bloodbath base duration increased to 30 seconds, trait now gives: critical hits while under bloodbath lower recast time of Foresight.
Reason: Bloodbath and Foresight are both pretty mediocre cooldowns, and I think this would be a more unique way to increase the uptime of Foresight.

Dark Knight Changes

I don't have DRK finished yet, but there are already some glaring issues/concerns with the synergy of its skills.

-Dark Dance w/ Dark Arts, change evasion boost to either more Parry Chance or increased Parry DMG reduction.
Reason: I think Blood Price is a good cooldown, but the DA enhanced version of Dark Dance works against BP. Even if BP didn't work the way it didn't, there's little reason to use DA on DD over SE/PS/DM. Giving DD increased Parry throughput will make it viable to use as physical tank buster cool down in the same vein as DM.

-Dark Passenger w/ Dark Arts, change blind effect to increased potency or increased DMG taken, or a TP restore of sorts.
Reason: As above, this skill works against BP and rarely sees use with DA. Any change to the DA use would most likely be welcome, lol.

-Plunge, add some sort of buff/debuff/effect.
Reason: Look, using Plunge is pretty awesome. But when you look at it as an oGCD, it's pretty lackluster. There's very little reason for gap closers atm, and having an oGCD that's just straight up damage is lazy. I'd be ok with a potency hit, or recast increase if something else was added to it... I'm just not sure what to do with it.

-Delirium combo bonus changed to decreases slashing resistance and HP recovery.
Reason: With this change, and the above change to PLD's Royal Authority, PLD and DRK could paired up and not be at any real disadvantage compared to having a WAR in party. This would also let a NIN in this composition keep their DPS higher by not having to use Dancing Edge.

[Donjo]

Tempered Will Woes

Tempered Will isn't just a tool for the lazy, nor is it a tool that solely exists to fix mistakes. Here are some examples of its use.

General: If you know you're going to be hit by a knockback/draw-in attack, there's no reason not to use it. Also, it breaks both Bind and Heavy. Wonderful for open world operations.

Titan EX: Sometimes, you'll be faced with an undodgable landslide and it won't be your fault. Tempered Will!

Ifrit EX: Ever wander too close to the Healer with Searing Wind? Use Tempered Will to make sure it doesn't end badly.

Levi EX: Use Tempered Will to stand on the side of the boat that the final add will pop in on without getting knocked off. You're now attacking it immediately while your party is floundering around for a second. This isn't lazy; it's optimal.

Shiva EX: Targeted by Avalanche? Tempered Will to prevent unnecessary turning/moving of the boss. Yourself and melee get more efficient uptime. If you're ever too close to the wall during a Sword Phase, it will keep Heavenly Strike from knocking you into it.

Turn 4: You're going to take less damage while kiting Soldiers/Knights if their draw-in isn't working on you.

Turn 5: Running out to get the last two snakes and the divebomb marker appears over your head? Tempered Will is your safety net.

Turn 9: Use Tempered Will to not get knocked around by Heavensfall. You're, again, able to attack the boss before everyone else can. Optimization of uptime, not laziness.

Turn 10: Tempered Will prevents Charge and Tornado knockbacks, allowing you to maximize uptime on the boss.

Turn 13: Feeling uncertain about your divebomb stack? Tempered Will'l keep you safe.

Neverreap: Nullify the final boss' knockback to give ample time to position it afterwards.

Bismark HM/EX: An unfortunately timed island hit left you stunned long enough to be in the crosshairs of a knockback attack? Tempered Will!

Ravana EX: Preventing the knockback from the first step of Tapysia lessens the odds of getting hit by the other two swipes. Alternately, use it to stay on the boss during Pillar of Heaven to maximize uptime.

Savage Alex 1: Sometimes you'll find yourself in an undodgable configuration of lasers. You can use Tempered Will to eliminate any risk of getting knocked into an acid puddle.

Savage Alex 3: While MTing the hand, use Tempered Will to not move during Wash Away. This not only maximizes your uptime on the boss, it helps melee and the other tank out by giving them a spot to immediately run back to without spending any time looking for the boss or waiting for repositioning.

Of all of the skills Paladin gets flack for about situationalness, Tempered Will is probably the one that has the most situations in which it is useful. Any use of it that equates solely to being lazy is simply a waste of the skill.

[Ercapote]

tempered will, tempered will, tem.....

I see people here still talking about JUST tempered will if half of you read what we where initially talking you will understand how we aren't talking about 1 specific ability but an entire pack of situational abilities that rarely have use.

so I'm just going to copy and paste a post of mine explaining all again hoping people will understand my point of view and MY OPINION

What the majority of this threat is missing is the FACT that PLD right now is just bad designed, yes 3 new combos and you can make use of it and make it interesting for YOURSELF but that doesn't mean the class isn't plain simple and uninteresting at best. lets recap...

Cover - ability only needed at t13 that one time on that one fight. personally been sitting 4 month in my hotbar with no use. you will only truly need it if you suck at keeping agro and even if you do better by just provoking that mob back, only protect against physical hits mostly useless
Tempered will - makes no different if you use or not, almost all knockbacks are non-lethal and let's be honest, if you play like you are supposed to you really, reeeally don't need it for anything. only useful on pvp and you even have a pvp ability that does exactly the same people can put 300 difference situations of that 1 time the use it but still taking out is mostly useless. personally I rarely use it since you only need to stick the fight mechanics and you can use only 1 time at most per fight.
shield swipe/pasification - DPS lost useless debuff only applicable to trash mobs super easy aoe they end up doing 2 seconds after you cancel that 1 mob with that 1 debuff - this is ability is just utter trash.
flash/blind - not a bad ability but compare to DRK aoe galore and War is just poopo. give the change to make the move miss the target, if I say I notice a difference I'll be lying, rarely noticeable utility and doesn't hurt anyone they miss maybe 1 o 2 hit per mob and on the healing aspect doesn't help at all, nothing compare to damage dealt by other tanks aoe that can help speed up those dungeon grind quite a bit.
shield bash A.K.A the longest Stun - lest get real aside from t5 and leviathan and pvp, when have we ever use this longest stun varely does any damage and most of the time just sits there on raid content. is not a bad ability and I personally have no problem with in fact I like it, but it doesn't get use so often.
Clemency - heal is decently low on pt member, cast time is too long, cost more than half of your mp and it result on a huge dps lost. and with that recast time helaers outcast you and recover the mp by the time you let it out making you waste your ability and mp

and this is just some of the abilities now lets go to the CD

SHELTRON - guaranteed block "1" PHYSICAL attack if it's magical this ability is useless - looking at you alex.
BULKWARD - Increase Block ( block only work with physical attacks) so on a magical fight, useless - looking at you alex
SHIELD - automatic block ( physical block) tanks magic tankbusters - F U ALEX!

only useful CD
RAMPART
SENTINEL

fun fact both tanks have the same relative CD

DRK
SHADOW WALL
SHADOW SKIN

are exactly the same

WAR
INNER BEAST
VENGEANCE
almost the same and even better.

and both tanks can cross class
CONVALENCES
AWEARENESS
gg

now on top of all this let's add the fact that PLD is the weakest of all tank because is supposed to be a DEFENSIVE tank ( dark knight does the same and better since it mitigate magical attacks) + stronger DPS (war are beast on self sustain and have just as much defense as PLD ) + mother of mother@#$$ tank DPS.

so can someone please tell me a reasonable explanation to this? everything about PLD compared to other options on the game is just bad by far the only class with so many situational abilities that only work "on that dungeon that one time when the planets align" sure you can tell me about how you save the group that 1 time or you prevent a wipe on that raid.

I've done that too we all probably have that 1 use that 1 time, but doesn't take out the fact that are abilities we don't touch and it's not about 1 is about a pack of abilities concentrated in 1 class that on top of that is the least enjoyable of the 3 or even of all the classes of the game and it's been even punished on performance compared to the other 2 tanks since they are just better on everything about PLD so yeah the class need a fix and big one because right now is just a mix of a disaster.

again personal opinion and experience.

[Reynhart]

Clemency - heal is decently low on pt member, cast time is too long, cost more than half of your mp and it result on a huge dps lost.

Again, the dreaded DPS loss.
I swear, if the dev team decided to put Hallowed Ground on GCD people would still bitch about it because it'd be a DPS loss...

[Ercapote]

Seriously, again, the dreaded DPS loss.
I swear, if the dev team decided to put Hallowed Ground on GCD people would still bitch about it because it'd be a DPS loss...

I will say you where right, but I wasn't talking about the dps, in fact I don't give a turd about dps I just want my tank main balance.

but read again dps is just 1 side effect, the biggest one is mp and how situational and not helpful at all it is.