How tank DPS focus is hurting the "trinity".

[Anger]

Prior to 3.0 tank and healer DPS wasn't weighed into fights as much or calculated for with enrage timers. In most trinity games, past and present, a healers role is to heal, a tanks role is to tank. I understand tank DPS can help out but it's not supposed to be the role of the tanks. The same can be said for healers.

The heavy emphasis on tanks and healers assisting to meet DPS checks and being used with classes, like the Paladin - from a time when that emphasis wasn't present(2.0), is beginning to pariah the Paladin. In 2.0, this emphasis wasn't there and the class was developed without that emphasis.

In 3.0 it would seem groups would much rather have the better magic mitigating DRK, with superior DPS, and a warrior. As it sits, the Paladin has virtually no edge over the DRK in magic based encounters as it brings less defense and less damage. I feel like this whole situation is poorly executed and implemented. It is defying the purpose of the trinity.

[Ercapote]

This all come to my opinion Bad Development, unfortunately this community and the core of the challenge of the raids have been DPS, DPS, DPS and unfortunately that's all there's there is not a single DEFENESE CHECK or HEALING CHECK it's all about DPS CHECK in fact, the only fight that kinda Implement this concept well, was T9 & T13 the only fights you truly needed to know how to max out where your class shinned to beat it. but the current game Meta is still DPS and that's all that matter because that's how we have been spoiled with We don't have defense mechanism, we don't FIGHT for aggro we just combo and dps, pop cd and dps do mechanics and dps.

[whiskeybravo]

I sort of agree but also disagree. It's really pretty simple at this point though. I mean, for example, would you rather take a DRG (or any dps) doing 1200 dps or a DRG doing 1000 dps? It's the same with tanks and healers. Tanking in and of itself is relatively easy, any tank should be able to tank things (hold aggro, communicate mechanics, pop cds on time, etc) so all things being equal wouldn't you rather have a tank pumping out 100 or 200 more dps vs one that isn't? A healer that can keep people alive plus contribute extra dps? Even if it's not necessary for "dps checks" it still results in quicker clears, ie more efficient time spent in game.

The point where I agree is expectations. Not every player is capable of multi-tasking or executing perfect dps rotations every encounter. If you are a static and you want a tank wearing full slaying or you want one healer to dps the whole first phase of a fight while the other solo heals, well that's your decision for your static, or type of players you recruit for your fc or whatever. What I don't like is when it comes to chastising players in random pugs or df groups, or on the other hand like when a tank in full slaying joins expert roulette, etc, and expects any random healer to keep them alive. That's where the line get's crossed in my opinion.

But in the current content str tanks and dps'ing healers is really only required in Savage, which is very demanding at current gear levels. I wouldn't say there's a heavy emphasis in 3.0 in general, only savage. And in reality all raid content in 2.0 was treated the same way until more gear was available. It's not like all of sudden tanks started wearing str and healers started dps'ing, it's always been this way, just more in demand now due to savage requirements.

[ZDamned]

I have more HP in full slaying than a brand new level 60 tank in full fending. Why would that be any harder for my healers to keep me alive?
This thread is so full of false perception, it's crazy. The DPS difference between the tanks is less than 5% from each other. Please stop perpetuating this false animosity. I've never joined any instance as any of the tanks, and been assaulted by my groups. I tank is full slaying 100% of the time on Warrior, Paladin, and Dark Knight. There has never once been any instance of my group complaining about me being on Paladin.

I also tank as both Paladin and Dark Knight in Savage. Savage being the only time this perception COULD POSSIBLY take palace, basically means you are in the top 0.05% of players in the world who are working on content where the DPS check actually could matter. (A3S) Because the first 2 Floors are very easy with Esoteric weapons.

[Ivellior]

The DPS difference between the tanks is less than 5% from each other.

I don't think that is quite true. If it were true you'd be seening groups with DRK/PLD, DRK/DRK or PLD/PLD on Savage. And also quite a few people are on Savage 3 (unless you meant 4).

[Anger]

I have more HP in full slaying than a brand new level 60 tank in full fending. Why would that be any harder for my healers to keep me alive?
This thread is so full of false perception, it's crazy. The DPS difference between the tanks is less than 5% from each other. Please stop perpetuating this false animosity. I've never joined any instance as any of the tanks, and been assaulted by my groups. I tank is full slaying 100% of the time on Warrior, Paladin, and Dark Knight. There has never once been any instance of my group complaining about me being on Paladin.

I also tank as both Paladin and Dark Knight in Savage. Savage being the only time this perception COULD POSSIBLY take palace, basically means you are in the top 0.05% of players in the world who are working on content where the DPS check actually could matter. (A3S) Because the first 2 Floors are very easy with Esoteric weapons.

What you're saying about the DPS difference is wrong.

[ZDamned]

I'm talking about Tanking DPS. Not Off tank.
Paladin and Dark knight are both ~620. While Dark Knight will be forced to dip lower for the sake of mitigation. You need to save a Dark Arts for Magic tank busters.

If were talking off tank DPS, it's slightly different. Warrior is in a high lead, while Paladin and Dark are within 60 DPS of each other in identical gear.

No good group is taking anything other than a warrior as an off tank.

The DPS difference I am talking about is both from personal testing, which I did just before posting my previous message as well as other high end groups I speak with.

Finally, the reason I even brought savage up in my final comment, is because you choose your party set up for your static. If you have a static that is complaining about what tank you are, go get another one. They're not worth your time.

The small DPS difference between the tanks is not the make or break for any group other than the very few "World first, 14 hour raids, 7 days a week" groups.

Are any of you part of those groups who can speak for the "issues" with the tank classes? If not, then I doubt your own raid is failing due to your slightly different from "optimal" numbers.

[Shyle]

The trinity is still there and ever present. The formula hasn't changed really. The tank still tanks, the healer still has to heal and the dps still has to dps.

If you want a good example of the trinity being removed, go look at GW2, that game was designed around self sufficiency.

The reason you see many modern MMO's focus more on the DPS side of things is due to the playerbase always prefers to do damage. Tanking without any "flair" of doing sometihng other than hitting defensive cooldowns is down right boring. Once games like WoW, Wildstar, ESO, Tera and now FFXIV put more emphasis on the damage output of the tanks (and healers) more people started to play those roles (thus filling out groups faster and making the role more "fun" and/or busy).

Frankly, I think the trinity needs *more* revision, it's an old standard that needs more change to draw in more players and quite possibly change up the entire genre/gameplay all together.

[Jayjohn]

If were talking off tank DPS, it's slightly different. Warrior is in a high lead, while Paladin and Dark are within 60 DPS of each other in identical gear.

No good group is taking anything other than a warrior as an off tank.

The DPS difference I am talking about is both from personal testing, which I did just before posting my previous message as well as other high end groups I speak with.

Did your personal test include slashing debuff for the PLD and DRK because from my personal testing at 2:30 all tank classes are +-20dps and all tank classes hitting 1K dps with Hive weapons and ilvl191 gear.

[AnimaS]

Prior to 3.0 tank and healer DPS wasn't weighed into fights as much or calculated for with enrage timers. .

The first T10 clears and some elements of 11 were most surely tank and healer dps. 12 was a bit harder to dps as tank but still there, sch for sure.. 13, both.