YoshiP stated that MMOs are trending toward F2P

[Naunet]

You pay for it. You pay for it with "time" in a sub MMO - hey, they charge by the month; so not only are you losing RL money to the sub, you are losing RL time.

I'ts a game. $15/month for hours and hours of fun in a game doesn't really qualify as "losing" money or time to... people who remember they're supposed to be playing a game. The subscription model is absolutely the best consumer-oriented value for the MMO product. Unfortunately, players have become all too willing to give up their rights and obligations as consumers in the name of worshiping a business's apparently holy "right" to profit. It no longer matters to them if something is good for them or not. Our society has become conditioned to accept horrible value and "just be happy with what you got".

[Bishop81]

I'ts a game. $15/month for hours and hours of fun in a game doesn't really qualify as "losing" money or time to... people who remember they're supposed to be playing a game. The subscription model is absolutely the best consumer-oriented value for the MMO product. Unfortunately, players have become all too willing to give up their rights and obligations as consumers in the name of worshiping a business's apparently holy "right" to profit. It no longer matters to them if something is good for them or not. Our society has become conditioned to accept horrible value and "just be happy with what you got".

But how are they extending the "fun"? Yupe, grinds.

As I have edited into the first post, since everyone seems to take it wrongly, it's just a realisation I had about how both sub and F2P MMOs use grinds "get money".

I used to think it's " the best consumer-oriented value for the MMO product" too. But with grinds and gating to drag out content (hold your subscription), a cash shop that offers rewards for money (cosmetic sure ... but rewards nonetheless), I can't help but feel the lines has blur considerably.

[Naunet]

I used to think it's " the best consumer-oriented value for the MMO product" too. But with grinds and gating to drag out content (hold your subscription), a cash shop that offers rewards for money (cosmetic sure ... but rewards nonetheless), I can't help but feel the lines has blur considerably.

Oh I agree the line has blurred considerably. I don't think extensive cash shops belong in P2P MMOs. If a dev goes too long without content updates, then that's going to hurt them, too. But the reasons they're doing these things are because the mindset of F2P has already sunk in, even though the game is still sub-based. P2P MMO sees that cash shops make lots of profit in F2P games and decides to try it. Players eat it up and shout down protests as though a company has some god-given right to profit at the expense of the consumers they are supposedly creating a product for. It's all about doing as little work for as much money possible, and the consumer has been taken completely out of the equation. Our input and desires used to matter, used to be valuable because keeping the consumer happy was seen as how to do business and maintain stable revenue. But now it's nothing in the face of the profit machine.

[Savagelf]

a ticket to months 15 dollar

a ticket to enjoy friends online 15 dollar a months.

[Meya]

F2P being pushed yes, not that many sub games now days yet never have there been so many failures in MMORPG history then now, why? Because they are pushing F2P and F2P really likes to ripit's players off, you get constant updates, but the majority of those updates are to the cash shop, and or ways to grind longer for a reward that shouldn't take nearly as long or cost nearly as much, 50 dollar mounts for example, 10 dollar bag space... Yeah if F2P is the future then your future is full of failed games that stop caring about you moment you stop spending on the game. They are only for those who spend money on the spot without thinking it out.

Reason most Sub mmo's have sucked isn't because they were sub it was because they built them with bare bones, something more meant for F2P quality then Sub quality. FFXIV fits Sub quality in MMORPG but it still lacks some key features of older titles.

[Fenwick]

Some of the hardest grinds I've been exposed to have been on free to play models, because they tend to add 'boosters' or perks to the cash shop to help you make said grinds acceptable for anyone with a life outside the game. Not much changes between the two models, if you don't want a grind you'll still have to pay money (often more than $15) unless you are in school or have a flexible work schedule.

The FFXIV grind is not bad at all, except for scripts, I've heard nightmares about that.

The point is, if you think the weekly caps and such will be lifted if the game goes F2P and you will live in a grindless utopia, you're wrong.

[Magistrella]

But how are they extending the "fun"? Yupe, grinds.

As I have edited into the first post, since everyone seems to take it wrongly, it's just a realisation I had about how both sub and F2P MMOs use grinds "get money".

I used to think it's " the best consumer-oriented value for the MMO product" too. But with grinds and gating to drag out content (hold your subscription), a cash shop that offers rewards for money (cosmetic sure ... but rewards nonetheless), I can't help but feel the lines has blur considerably.

Lines, blurred?

It is COSMETICS in the cash shop. Nothing that changes the speed/way you progress. Or anything that lets you skip progressing at all.

The cashshop is just another way to milk the cow without abandoning the steady income which i think most people forget is the actual reason why we get so much "new" stuff over the course of a year: because devs can plan ahead due to subscription numbers

And yes, of course they want to keep you playing, because that is how they make their salaries. Less Money equals less going into development,less resources to develop, less customers that yearn for the NEW NEW NEW NEW NEW NEW NEW NEW and come back for 1-2 month for every patch.

But f2p tries to suck every penny out of your purse with methods that are more then questionable if you think about it for just one second:
Inventory Space - sometimes you loose it if you do not keep rebuying it - like a subscription
Leveling speed greatly differs if you buy shop items or not - there are games out there where you can pump 100 bucks in it to max a char without doing anything - fair? not really
minions and mounts (now dont come and say "WE GOT THAT NAOW TOO CRY SOB MIMIMI" - we got 1 mount in the shop and, how many of 120+ minions?) that are usually gated behind an absurd rng wall that can only be called a casino
Equipment equally to drops in highest level raids bought for a couple bucks
Instance reset items - you want to do something more then once a day - well to bad, you better pay up then

etc etc etc etc

tl;dr:

f2p is in for the quick buck - and the game will usually die off into only a few server after 1-3 years
p2p is in for the long run - the game usually has a growth curve and a decline curve with spikes on patch and expansion dates

I for my part will quit this game if it goes f2p and i dont like the shop methods/changes - same as i quit AION/RIFT/TERA those games are still up and running, but to see how bloodsucking development becomes after a game goes f2p is horrible :/

[Naunet]

The cashshop is just another way to milk the cow without abandoning the steady income

That people can state this without even a single ounce of protest is emblematic of just how much the producer-consumer relationship has eroded.

[Bishop81]

Lines, blurred?

It is COSMETICS in the cash shop. Nothing that changes the speed/way you progress. Or anything that lets you skip progressing at all.

Depends on how you define "progressing".

People play for different reasons. Different things are important to different people.

For some, functional gear is what is valuable. For others, it's the cosmetic stuff.

Inventory Space - sometimes you loose it if you do not keep rebuying it - like a subscription

Funny you should mention that. *cough*retainers*cough*

Leveling speed greatly differs if you buy shop items or not - there are games out there where you can pump 100 bucks in it to max a char without doing anything - fair? not really

Sub MMO = you spend time and money to level.
F2P MMO = you can spend time or money to level.

As the Goblins in WoW like to say, "Time is money, friend.". So ...

On a side note, WoW has embraced that concept in RL too via the WoW token.

The cashshop is just another way to milk the cow without abandoning the steady income which i think most people forget is the actual reason why we get so much "new" stuff over the course of a year: because devs can plan ahead due to subscription numbers

And yes, of course they want to keep you playing, because that is how they make their salaries. Less Money equals less going into development,less resources to develop, less customers that yearn for the NEW NEW NEW NEW NEW NEW NEW NEW and come back for 1-2 month for every patch.

But f2p tries to suck every penny out of your purse with methods that are more then questionable if you think about it for just one second:
...

minions and mounts (now dont come and say "WE GOT THAT NAOW TOO CRY SOB MIMIMI" - we got 1 mount in the shop and, how many of 120+ minions?) that are usually gated behind an absurd rng wall that can only be called a casino
Equipment equally to drops in highest level raids bought for a couple bucks
Instance reset items - you want to do something more then once a day - well to bad, you better pay up then

etc etc etc etc

tl;dr:

f2p is in for the quick buck - and the game will usually die off into only a few server after 1-3 years
p2p is in for the long run - the game usually has a growth curve and a decline curve with spikes on patch and expansion dates

I for my part will quit this game if it goes f2p and i dont like the shop methods/changes - same as i quit AION/RIFT/TERA those games are still up and running, but to see how bloodsucking development becomes after a game goes f2p is horrible :/

There are many ways to do a F2P MMO.

Again I'm not advocating for FFXIV to go F2P.

You are pointing out the worst ways to go about it.

Anyway, this somehow went off topic into a discussion about the evils of F2P. Whatever.

[XgungraveX]

Is there a potential plan for FFXIV to go F2P?

I suspect they are considering it.

going to stop you right since yoshi.p said that he would rather see ff14 died than go f2p, cant blame him