Why not just make everyone a DPS?

[RapBreon]

But I'd like one or two that massively test my ability to take damage when undergeared too, please. I guess Alex 2 is kinda close to that, albeit a bit weird due to tachikoma stuns and an ideal want for high AOE dps from tanks too. I hope people know what I mean though. There's only four tough raid encounters in the game right now - I just hope the next set of raids are less like Alex 1/3 as far as tank expectations.

Judging by your post you know the answer to your problem. If a DPS check is tight, the value of a DPS centric tank's value increases. You'll then work around their inferior mitigation relying on the skill of your tanks and healers, due to the amount of tools each player has access too. There is no other way to work around a DPS check.

If the DPS check isn't as tight - as in a coordination based fight or mechanically complex fight - you'll take something that stabilizes the group providing a larger margin for error, because there are numerous ways to work around fights like that. If a fight includes both in ample quantities, the DPS check always supersedes any other kind of mechanic due to its binary nature (you meet it and there is only one way to meet it or you lose). Truly difficult fights include both. Therein lies the problem. Square wanted to make this tier 'exceptionally hard'. This means tight DPS checks are a necessity.

But here's the real rub, if you start making tank mitigation super important (even though it is still being checked), WARs will simply take the place of PLDs on the sidelines. You can't win either way. If next tier becomes all tank busters and meh dps checks (an easier tier in general then), it'll be the WARs in here doing the exact same thing (80 DPS shouldn't mean I can't do XYZ). The best Square can do is make a tier that has fights super reliant on a DPS check and some that aren't as reliant (but still important), keeping all the tanks relevant. Unless of course you want to make all the tanks the same. But holy hell, I hate that, rather deal with the imbalance.

The complaining is stemming from the fact there are only 3 real fights known to the public with an overwhelming majority primarily doing the 1st, which favours WARs. Essentially, for most people trying to clear Savage as a non-WAR it boils down to "I don't like this tier/boss, it doesn't favour my play-style", which is fine. Coil didn't favour mine, re-rolled a PLD for Hallowed Ground anyway, still had a blast. Now this tier I get to (or was going to T.T) DPS my little tank heart out. This is what it's like trying to clear content meant to be hard, not fair when ilvls are low. You play optimally, not how you like (which for me, is the same thing! Lucky me!).

Honestly I wouldn't of had a problem with tanks not being able to tank any of Alex Sav without vit gear (stricter healer and tank checks). But I can tell you not many people would have cleared it if that were the case. It would also be a metric shit-ton harder to balance for when you consider all of the utility spells everyone has access to compared to a simple DPS check (possibly not very creative on Square's end). For example; a BLM would all of a sudden become more valuable (possibly mandatory, reminds me of Shadow Priest stacking hahaha) for Apocatastasis on A1 simple because your tanks can't survive the tank buster that now does double the damage it does now.

/procrastination!

[Reynhart]

But here's the real rub, if you start making tank mitigation super important (even though it is still being checked), WARs will simply take the place of PLDs on the sidelines.

You make both mechanics at the same time.

Let's imagine a big boss who create parts of him. Each time one part is killed, he loses a 10% of its life, and you need one tank for the main body and one for the part.
You could have any tank on the main body focused on surviving high damaging moves (So, any tank with high VIT, but "mostly" PLD or DRK, since damage is less relevant), and one tank on the spare part focused on dishing out damage (So, any tank with high STR but mostly WAR since surviving is less relevant)

You could even alter the main target to switch periodically to either physical or magical busters, thus each tank will have its strong and weak points in the long run, and the spare part to switch between physical and magical resistance so that you want to mix your DPS.
For an additionnal mechanic, you could make the body to keep only one type of busters (physical or magical) when it hits 50% HP, thus managing your timing so that the final from better suits the main tank you have.

[RapBreon]

You make both mechanics at the same time.

Let's imagine a big boss who create parts of him. Each time one part is killed, he loses a 10% of its life, and you need one tank for the main body and one for the part.
You could have any tank on the main body focused on surviving high damaging moves (So, any tank with high VIT, but "mostly" PLD or DRK, since damage is less relevant), and one tank on the spare part focused on dishing out damage (So, any tank with high STR but mostly WAR since surviving is less relevant)

You could even alter the main target to switch periodically to either physical or magical busters, thus each tank will have its strong and weak points in the long run, and the spare part to take reduced damage from physical or magical so that mixing DPSes will be more efficient.
For an additionnal mechanic, you could make the body to stay in one form (physical or magical) when it hits 50% HP, thus managing your timing so that the final from better suits the main tank you have.

You can do this kind of stuff. And MMOs do. But it's a gimmick, you can't fill an entire tier with it. One boss a tier does not make. It's a good idea though, don't get me wrong.

And in the current FF:HW climate it wouldn't work as is. If the current level of DPS checks were transplanted to your hypothetical, you'd still want a tank who does more damage. Build aggro on head, switch to limbs to help DPS.

Your problem is with the tightness of the checks. As I have said, it is binary. Progression through difficult bosses (mathematically speaking) close to release has always been about squeezing DPS to the maximum (single heal Garrosh world first anyone? What a god).

[Reynhart]

Build aggro on head, switch to limbs to help DPS.

Not if you need to keep the part and head away from each other.

That's just an idea I had after 5 minutes, I'm pretty sure a full team of experienced developers can create a lot of bosses with these kind of mechanics

You could also make time kills where the main target has to die around the same time as the last lesser target of a long train. So, killing the main target the fastest is irrelevant.

[Gameplayzero]

I don't get the complaints. The simple answer is that if you are feeling pressured is to just find a group that you can be yourself and go all Vit. It seems that the only time you'd REALLY need to stance dance is during end game, and thats optional. My answer won't change the meta, but for right now its the best thing you have.

Personally I find it way more exciting finding the fine line between "life and death" while also contributing to the team with better damage output. Its more thought provoking and has more thrill. Regular tanking is popping up cooldowns, keeping aggro, and staying alive. DPS tanking is the same, but you are in a more fragile state and are doing more damage. There is hardly any difference. You still have aggro to worry about, and you have to worry more about cooldowns now that you are out of your tanking stance. Its more tanking then actual tanking lol. Your damage also can contribute to your tanking (especially warrior) so thats another plus. This also makes it more exciting/thrilling for healers since they have more healing to do (as long as the tank knows how to properly stance dance and the healer wants the challenge). If your tank is hardly taking any damage then they'll get bored and dps. I don't play healer, but I highly doubt that healer dps will be as fun as tanking dps/rotations :P. Correct me if i'm wrong though.

i'm just happy that they gave us the option to be both.

[Yorumi]

for Apocatastasis on A1 simple because your tanks can't survive the tank buster that now does double the damage it does now.

I think another part of the problem is the total reliance on tank busters and scripted fights. When pretty much all the damage in any fight except the known tank busters is considered fluff damage that regen takes care of I think there's something pretty wrong with the fight design. If the damage was more consistent you'd have a more organic fight.

The biggest problem honestly is that the content is just so lazily designed. Dps is the only thing checked, there's no real mitigation stat in the game, fights are 100% scripted so it's just a game simon says, mitigation is 90% passive etc.

[RapBreon]

I think another part of the problem is the total reliance on tank busters and scripted fights. When pretty much all the damage in any fight except the known tank busters is considered fluff damage that regen takes care of I think there's something pretty wrong with the fight design. If the damage was more consistent you'd have a more organic fight.

The biggest problem honestly is that the content is just so lazily designed. Dps is the only thing checked, there's no real mitigation stat in the game, fights are 100% scripted so it's just a game simon says, mitigation is 90% passive etc.

Yeah but that's MMO raiding in general FF:ARR especially. Its entire philosophy is 'learn the dance' (Titan anyone). It's the very core of this game. If you take issue with that, then I'm not sure what to say 0.o.

Healers are certainly being checked though. The oppressors check healers...oh yes do they check the healers. And they kind of check the tanks? Albeit it's can you press buttons when you see a cast bar! But it's there...but I'll concede it's a shitty one.

Not if you need to keep the part and head away from each other.

That's just an idea I had after 5 minutes, I'm pretty sure a full team of experienced developers can create a lot of bosses with these kind of mechanics

You could also make time kills where the main target has to die around the same time as the last lesser target of a long train. So, killing the main target the fastest is irrelevant.

Ok so then what is the MT doing? Sitting there casting Clemency and Riot blade combo? Throw tomahawks? If the DPS on the head matters, then he'll be a WAR. If it doesn't, then he's a weird support character for a fight (AKA only a PLD could do that fight optimally). Like I said, it'd work for a single fight and it'd be cool. But a whole tier, eh, not convinced.

[Yorumi]

Yeah but that's MMO raiding in general FF:ARR especially. Its entire philosophy is 'learn the dance' (Titan anyone). It's the very core of this game. If you take issue with that, then I'm not sure what to say 0.o.

I think the problem is the degree to which ARR and really HW takes the scripting and lazy design. I don't expect pure rng but it's taken to such a ridiculous extreme you're pretty much a robot in these fights. Every class is basically a fixed rotation, every boss is a scripted dps check. We're not thinking during a fight we're writing a bot script.

[Ercapote]

stuff .

emmm....wut? I never understood players like you, no offence but what script? the so called "ROTATIONS" are mathematical combinations made for us the player, Yes is the probably maximum dps combination to maximize your abilities, but there's not a single part on the entire game where it says in which order you need to use your abilities nor you are obligated to follow that rotation, hell you can make your own rotation if you want to go ahead and do some math. The same goes for the fight, yes mechanics are scripted but the way to approach those mechanics are up to us there's no reason why you should mimic other groups mechanics. What people fail to understand is that to make a boss difficult and challenging for 8 man there's need to be something called synchronization, there's nothing harder than HUMAN ERROR and for 8 people to perfectly be sync there needs to be an script that makes then all not only to perfectly play his class but also learn how to use the class on different situation while synchronize with each other to handle the so called script mechanic, there's nothing hard about random abilities mix up together because anyone can just do whatever they want there's no need to be synchronize just know what we will do when the abilities pop up, there's no fun in that. take example of SHIVA (easiest primal of all)

[Yorumi]

emmm....wut? I never understood players like you, no offence but what script? the so called "ROTATIONS" are mathematical combinations made for us the player, Yes is the probably maximum dps combination to maximize your abilities,

I'm guessing you don't have a lot of experience with MMO combat systems and class design because you don't seem to understand the basic difference between a fix rotation and a priority system. Fixed rotations means you always know what your next skill is. There is some minor leeway in that fight mechanics can occasionally screw up a rotation and cause you to start over but the rotation is basically always skill 1, skill 2, skill 3....skill n, repeat. That's what virtually every dps and tank does in this game.

A priority system means your next skill is the highest priority skill that's come off cooldown based on the current situation and resources available. In it's simplest form skill 1 has top priority, skill 2 is next priority, skill 3 is lowest priority. If you just did skill 3 and skill 1 and 2 are off cooldown then your action is skill 1. However, if you just did skill 3 and skill 1 is still on cooldown then your next action is skill 2. The priorities can shift with the flow of battle too including how your resource pool is doing.

As for synchronization being hard, it's only "hard" because they make failure to play simon says instant fail. Having people react to the flow of battle is much more challenging than rote memorization.