Why not just make everyone a DPS?

[Yorumi]

If you don't care to push the limits of a job then you're not going to be pushing the limits of content (cutting edge, doing stuff under the designed ilvl etc). There's nothing wrong with that, but that's what it is.

Why though should pushing the limits of a job involve solely pushing the limits of another job? When a dps is asked to push the limits of his job that involves maximizing dps, not maximizing tanking or healing. Likewise shouldn't a healer pushing his limits involve maximizing healing output and a tank pushing limits involve minimizing damage taken? Yet in reality when a tank is asked to push his job to the limits this involves ignoring mitigation(granted there's not really a mitigation stat) and instead focusing on dps. For a healer, similarly this involves minimizing healing in favor of maximizing dps.

Does that not suggest a fundamental design flaw? Should we be calling for blms and smns to maximize healing at the expense of dps, and for melee dps to maximize tanking?

[VargasVermillion]

Why though should pushing the limits of a job involve solely pushing the limits of another job? When a dps is asked to push the limits of his job that involves maximizing dps, not maximizing tanking or healing. Likewise shouldn't a healer pushing his limits involve maximizing healing output and a tank pushing limits involve minimizing damage taken?

There isn't much you can do to 'maximize' mitigation, typically maximizing for a tank is doing both efficiently as with healers. but with healing and mitigation if you're maximizing by doing more damage you've essentially maximized healing or mitigation as well. Even if mechanically you are supposed to maximize mitigation or healing it would require a re-balance of the combat system, classes and fights that are in game to see that design through. You'll never see dps 'maximizing via healing or tanking because they never need to nor could even if they needed or wanted to.

[Izsha]

Why though should pushing the limits of a job involve solely pushing the limits of another job?

.....

Does that not suggest a fundamental design flaw? Should we be calling for blms and smns to maximize healing at the expense of dps, and for melee dps to maximize tanking?

As for if tanks/heals SHOULD be forced into cutting corners on their primary function in order to dps, that's a mater if taste.

Thats a design choice not a design flaw. Your implied assertion is that to push the limits of a tank class means to tank harder (mitigate more, have more hp) and therefore not doing that (cutting hp and dpsing more) is a flaw. It's based on the assertion that tanking is about having more hp and mitigating (tank stance all the time). That's not right or wrong on principle. It's just an opinion about what a tank "should" be.

This is really just a philosophical debate on what a tank "should" be. Some like the aggressive current meta. Some feel that's not how tanking should be. But ultimately those are both just opinions and neither right or wrong. But to change the entire game around just to flip the tables on who's happy and who's not isn't practical. That's a lot of dev effort just to cater to a different audience. That just doesn't seem practical to me unless there's some evidence that 5% of the tanks like aggressive tanking and 95% hate it and want turtle tanks (for example). For all I know , most people might prefer it the way it currently is. Idunno.

The only way to really appease both camps would be to make vit the damage modifier for tanks. Then dps tanks are still happy and turtle tanks are happy because they are one and the same. But that removes one of the only flexible aspects in this entire game (and sad goldsmiths lol).

There's no right or wrong way that tanks should conceptually function because it's just an opinion on what people think tanking aught to be like. But the design dictates which path is best. That's just a design choice, not a flaw.

[Sapphidia]

I fully agree, Izsha. Most of my own personal whining on the matter is very much from a perspective that I -personally- do not enjoy the direction the designs seem to have taken in 3.0, though admit that others may adore it, but it's a little more than that.

It's that the Developers have been sending stark messages that this IS NOT HOW IT SHOULD BE.

Not only did the Developers imply that DPS checks were being tuned to be focused around healers/tanks doing their primary role, there's been a number of decisions made that fly in the face of the current meta that tanks should maximise dps:

- Tank-specific Fending accessories contain zero Strength.
- Tanks cannot roll on Strength accessories.
- Devs have stated they do not like the advantage Pentameld Crafted gear gives. There are no Accessories higher than 150 whites for tanks.
- 3.0 added Accuracy to tank stances, implying the Devs expect tanks to only use DPS stances from the side/flank.
- Healer gear contains zero accuracy now and they've specifically stated they dont want to balance fights with healers dpsing.
- Devs stated Warrior's advantage was "damage" as an offtank, but there's no current raid need/advantage for the "utility" PLD/DRK OTs offer.

These are all fairly minor things of course, but they all point to the fact that Devs intend tanks to gear up as tanks with survivability in mind, and balance encounters around that. Tanks were going Slaying accessories in 2.0, and prioritising pentamelds too, so it's not like this is a new thing, but instead of fostering that playstyle the Devs made changes in 3.0 that seem to DIScourage it.

All of those small things make it quite frustrating to play the current Meta as a tank and focus on pure damage. The game is set up to tell you "this isnt how you should be playing" and makes it intentionally hard to gravitate towards playing your role in the apparent optimal way. It's the mixed messages. By all means make tank's damage output the most important part of their kit, but if you're going to do that either slap Strength on our fending accessories, let our damage scale with Vit, or let us roll Need on Slaying accessories. And take the 5% accuracy off our tanking stances or slap it on our DPS stances too if we're expected to use them to max our damage when tanking.

Izsha says the current meta is a "design choice", not a "design flaw". I counter by saying that the current meta is NOT how the developers actually intended it to be. It doesnt mean it's wrong/bad, but I don't think it was truly their choice how things have developed.

[Yorumi]

Izsha says the current meta is a "design choice", not a "design flaw". I counter by saying that the current meta is NOT how the developers actually intended it to be. It doesnt mean it's wrong/bad, but I don't think it was truly their choice how things have developed.

I would add to the counter by also saying it seems to make tanks kind of an afterthought. Right now a "tank" is basically just a dps with defensive cooldowns instead of offensive. To me it's one thing when a game has you swapping a few things to get a bit of extra damage, and another when the tanks are playing and gearing essentially identically to dps.

[nyttyn]

If they actually wanted to force tanks to run VIT, they'd make slaying accessories STR-class only, put in tankbuster HP checks, move some defense from tank gear onto accessories to force tanks to pack those as well, or make tank accessories more attractive.

As they've done none of these things, it doesn't matter what their 'intent' is, their current setup of encounters flies in the face of it.

[Abbul_Stonecleaver]

For tanks that like turtle style, that is fine, and it is still plausible for some groups. I know it's still a debate on various forums about which is greater dps gain: healer dps'ing with turtle tanks or healer dps'ing with aggressive tanks.

One group I know goes with turtle tanks, and their Scholar does some serious dps. She pulled over 900 in AS2 last week and high numbers as well in AS1.

Basically, someone should be maximizing dps for optimal play, but the other can take that responsibility of allowing it to happen.. Including turtle tanks. Maybe that bothers some of you, but I find it to be far more interesting than tank is a turtle and healer is a healbot.

[Iagainsti]

This thread tho.

If the OP played then or anyone else recalls, I warrior tanked when our group first fought T5. My rotation then was to pop berserk into IB, infuriate>heavy swing>IB then drop defiance into SE combos to(you guessed it) maximize my damage because that's what the raid called for when it was true endgame(release of 2.0; I90 average level wasn't a thing for most- first runs at Twin I was avg i87) everyone had to eek out as much damage as they could because the tier of gear called for it. Then CT came out, they echoed the Turns and added them to DF. No need to play at that peak performance. The. You hit T9 and repeated the process.

Point is, welcome to endgame. Sorry that, as a tank or healer, you're expected to pump some damage in to shorten phases, just like DDs are expected to dodge and burn in time frames to shorten phases and minimize unnecessary healing/mp waste. Quit complaining and acting like this is something new.

[Iagainsti]

The only real defense is an active defense- Mao Zedong

[HoodRat]

- Tank-specific Fending accessories contain zero Strength.
- Tanks cannot roll on Strength accessories.
- Devs have stated they do not like the advantage Pentameld Crafted gear gives. There are no Accessories higher than 150 whites for tanks.
- 3.0 added Accuracy to tank stances, implying the Devs expect tanks to only use DPS stances from the side/flank.
- Healer gear contains zero accuracy now and they've specifically stated they dont want to balance fights with healers dpsing.
- Devs stated Warrior's advantage was "damage" as an offtank, but there's no current raid need/advantage for the "utility" PLD/DRK OTs offer.

Well, if we do that can we also add in-game dps meters, a personal dps record that tracks the average dps of your class and then put up an average dps requirement for dps classes for everything in duty finder? Or at least have the devs make a detailed guide for every dps class that people are forced to go through every time they switch to a dps class? I'm sure I'm not the only tank having the highest dps in expert roulette/df alexander runs.

Oh, and since you want to lower tank dps, can we just make all boss fights something where I can just hit flash once, put my character into some heroic pose which gives me infinite enmity and then leave the room and go make a sandwich? Apparently you don't want tanks attacking things so that seems pretty fair to me since attacking things is pretty much all there is to this game besides crafting and gathering. Then again, miners and botanists look pretty aggressive when they swing their tools at rocks and trees. Can we go ahead and lower their dps too?