Why not just make everyone a DPS?

[Sapphidia]

I don't think anyone is really debating that it's not fun to max your dps - if you enjoy playing ANY class to its fullest extent in an MMO then it's a fun thing to do, to theorycraft optimal rotations, practise them on dummies and in the field, and select gear appropriate to it.

The problem tanks suffer is that they have to make sacrifices to the OTHER aspect of their fun, the feeling of tankiness. Feeling forced to find as many moments as possible to swap into Sword Oath, turn Grit off etc is skillful yes but also makes you feel squishy. Same as being forced to give up the security of a huge hitpoint pool in order to wear strength accessories. It's necessary/optimal but it takes away from that feeling you can get when tanking.

I agree it would be good to have the tanking rotation more complex to introduce more skill into the mitigation side, rather than just "keep these debuffs up and press one of your cooldowns before a big thing happens". But I don't mind the complexity in the job role being in the optimal dps output area. What I object to is that the current meta encourages tanks to merely have the bare minimum of survivability and optimise DPS, rather than maximising their survivability and considering DPS once the tanky element is minmaxed.

Different people like different things, but the current meta only really caters to the kind of tank players who would probably gravitate towards Warrior as their choice of tanking archetype - they want to be aggressive and deal heavy damage from the front. The players who gravitated towards paladins -probably- prefer more the feeling of the immovable wall and don't care if their DPS is lower than other tanks as long as that isnt a detriment to the group, because they get a good feeling from being solid and hard to kill.

The problem doesnt really stem from the kits of the tanks. I think the tanks are nicely balanced and all play well. The issue is that each tank is designed to solve a different problem, but there's only really one type of problem being displayed in raids. Warriors are a hammer, dark knights are a hefty wrench, Paladins are a screwdriver. The problem is that every raid so far is a Nail.

[Dante_V]

The tanks job is to hold aggro on enemies > mitigate as much damage possible being received from those enemies > maximize damage output while doing the first two.

All of these things are indeed the tanks job. Some of the tank jobs do some of these things better than others. Tanks that refuse to do these things by limiting themselves to imaginary "role restrictions" are just limiting their contribution to the team. A good player will try and maximize their output in favor of the team in every way possible. At the end of the day efficiently clearing content is everyone's job. Those who are refusing to give their all to this end are holding the team back. This isn't just applied to tanks.

[Sapphidia]

The tanks job is to hold aggro on enemies > mitigate as much damage possible being received from those enemies > maximize damage output while doing the first two.

This is the point. This is what it SHOULD be. But it isnt. Right now it's:

Hold aggro on enemies -> get just enough gear/cooldowns to not die in 1 second -> maximise DPS output -> mitigate as much damage as possible after the first conditions are met.

The focus is vastly different in practise. Right now as soon as your health levels and general mitigation is -just enough- to survive an encounter, tanks are expected to focus 100% on improving their DPS rather than improving their survivability. I'm sure for a lot of players this is really fun, and it's certainly great to feel like you're doing your best for your group. But for others, this subtle change in focus is making the class feel somewhat different to what was signed up for.

[HoodRat]

So many bads in here.

[Yorumi]

Those who are refusing to give their all to this end are holding the team back. This isn't just applied to tanks.

I don't think anyone is really refusing it's just they don't like this type of design where a tank basically just feels like a dps that happens to have the mob's attention. Almost everything about reducing damage is passive or is just press cooldown when you see big cast bar. Look at the converse, imagine raids were designed so that dps classes had to build for mitigation, and had to use a more defensive stance for 80% of the fight. I think dps would be rightly saying "I didn't sign up to tank I signed up to dps." People can call me a role purist but I think the design of content should be such that each role focuses on maximizing it's role. Dps should maximize dps, healers should maximize healing, and tanks should maximize mitigation.

[Sapphidia]

Those who are refusing to give their all to this end are holding the team back. This isn't just applied to tanks.

Yeah, this particular argument isnt about refusing to give their all. As a Paladin main, I bought pentamelded jewellery, I run HQ Drac Str pots every raid, I coordinate with my healers for when it's fine to sword oath on faust/oppressor/whatever to crank out the extra damage, I do everything I can to try and compensate for the fact that as a Paladin I'll be putting less damage on the field than a Warrior. I can't remember the last time I had to remotely think about optimising my tanking ability in Alex Savage other than just knowing what cooldown rotation to use.

It's not about refusing to give their all. It's about feeling that the focus of minmaxing and theorycraft for tanks in 3.0 is entirely weighted on optimising DPS output and that just isnt as fun for -some- people as optimising mitigation/tankiness. It's a "feel" thing, and it's the kind of thng that's making players like me consider swapping roles because tanking just feels so different to how it did in 2.5, even though the new abilities we got technically made the classes more fun and interactive.

Tanking feels different in focus now, and something about it feels "off" compared to previous content.

[Dante_V]

I wasn't addressing this to any particular class and wasn't addressing the limitation of any particular class. Obv a Pally doesn't put out the dps of the other two but this is the trade off in particular for that class. The tanking meta as dps focused has more to do with them dropping the savage raid with a higher ilvl in mind and therefore requiring more team dps. The content can still be cleared with a pally but is easier with a tank that can output more dps. There is more of an emphasis on dps for tanks currently but this will only be until people gear up further. Personally I like the emphasis on dps as a tank more than not. The tanking in this game is painfully boring without some other element just do to the nature of the way we interact with enemies. Some people may like it tho so it's different for everyone. I found tanking in 2.0 to be painfully boring outside of trying to single tank things as a war or brand new content when we were still undergeared.

[Yorumi]

The tanking in this game is painfully boring without some other element just do to the nature of the way we interact with enemies. Some people may like it tho so it's different for everyone.

The argument that tanking is boring really only says that tanks in this game are very poorly designed. It's probably too late now but to me the solution is more interesting tanking, more active mitigation rather than passive, fewer fixed rotations and something to actually think about, not just make tanks like dps. If the only way we can have fun is by becoming a dps it makes one question why we all became tanks in the first place.

[ZDamned]

wow.. Tanking is no different now, than it was before. The only thing different now is that you are not over geared for the encounters this time around...

Did you clear T5 in greater than ilvl 80? Then you were over geared.
Did you clear T9 in greater than ilvl 100? Then you were over geared.
Did you clear T13 in greater than ilvl 120? Then you were over geared.

[Kallera]

wow.. Tanking is no different now, than it was before. The only thing different now is that you are not over geared for the encounters this time around...

Did you clear T5 in greater than ilvl 80? Then you were over geared.
Did you clear T9 in greater than ilvl 100? Then you were over geared.
Did you clear T13 in greater than ilvl 120? Then you were over geared.

Your numbers for t9 and t13 are wrong and lower than the min. Ilvl to get in. Even if the progression based groups did it at lower, you cannot get in now at such ilvls, so its hardly overgearing.

Anyway, i remember bringing this concern up before. Dps classes either need their own branching out or their damage abilities brought out. Df restrictions shouldn't be the only reason to invite your local blm.