"Please Kick Me..." - Just Take Your Penalty

[Mykll]

I've seen these things happen frequently, whether I started in the original group, or I came in later as a replacement.

Someone wants a kick immediately when they get a dungeon they do not like. As soon as they enter. And, sometimes, when I use the opening dungeon cutscene as a chance to get a quick drink refill or something, cutscene will end, and someone has already left.

Someone wants a kick when everyone is the minimum level to enter the dungeon. Thus, maybe gear is not too good yet and will take longer.

Someone wants a kick because too many new people.

Someone wants a kick as soon as they see the party makeup. Pre-50 dungeon, PLD, 2 melees, AST healer? Not a lot of AOE damage there, must immediately leave, run will take longer.

Someone wants a kick if there is that first accidental bad pull. Where hey they at least try to stick it out. Most famous, first room in AV. First bad pull, train wreck happens, immediately they want to leave.

I see these various reasons happen fairly frequently. Again, as either someone in the original group, or when I come in as a replacement, I am always curious (Especially in like AV, only 1 thing, or nothing, is dead in the first room) so I ask what happened. All of this before we really know if the run will take long, or if we may run out of time, or any other various "different play style" reasons.

It is these various immediate wanting of a kick that I think is the main issue. If a run is taking long, or I join and there is less than 20 minutes left (and again I ask what happened) I can't remember someone ever wanting a kick in a 90 minute dungeon, with 20-30 minutes left to go. It usually happens at the very beginning, or by the first-second boss range, maybe 30 minutes into it. Why did I join an in progress so late? It is always from a DC. Sure someone that never says a word we don't know why they DC, but I can't remember someone ever saying they wanted a kick, didn't get it, then magically DC'd.

[Purrfectstorm]

Someone wants a kick because too many new people.

I think SE deserves some of the blame for this; many duties have mechanics that are too punishing or hard to learn for new people and groups that are made up of mostly new people will be destined to wipe. If it's is a new duty with hard mechanics, then the person who solo DFs into it has unreasonable expectations (not to have new people) but if it's an older duty that is frequently cleared in DF because most of the community understands the mechanics at that point, then you can't really blame the person for wanting to leave and try their luck with another DF group. Many new players simply do not understand/accept that their lack of knowledge will doom everyone else. I'd suggest they watch a video but every time that can of worms gets opened, the baddies that forget this is a team game go nuts.

Get rid of one, and flood gates open for another. If we had no penalties, people would just keep on fishing and fishin for whatever dungeon tehy want through roulette. No leafers would ever get tam-tara done if people could bail out immediately without a penalty.

Well I didn't say "no penalties," I said "no penalty timers;" there are other ways to prevent players fishing for specific duties. For example, have roulette bonuses disappear after entering a duty rather than on completion. This idea isn't perfect (it's just a quick brainstorm anyway), but I think the possible consequences (like losing a bonus due to a votekick or DC) are less of a downside than disabling one's ability to play at all.

We pay to play the game in order to have fun but penalty timers say that if we're not having fun, we ought not to leave, and if we do leave, then we can't play/have fun for 30 more minutes. At the extreme end of the scale, where this occurs frequently and/or the penalty timer increases, people will just quit paying/playing the game altogether. Some probably already have. I know any time I am verbally abused, leave a party, and then to add insult to injury, I am penalized for it, I think about playing something with rules that make a bit more sense.

And again, it's not forcing you to stay in the party. Why do people feel so inclined that they're forced to stay, when they can straight up leave with a 30 minute timer?

Forcing: power to influence, affect, or control. A penalty timer exists precisely to influence player behavior. Sure, a person can leave a duty, disobey a rule or law, stand up to a bully, etc. People don't always do what they want to do because the external influences are too strong (i.e. forcing them). People shouldn't always do what they want to do (but that's another story).

However, since FFXIV is a game people should mostly get to do what they want to do (within reason). We can debate whether or not players should get to leave a duty without penalty but since it's just a matter of opinion, neither of us can be "wrong." But there are right or wrong business decisions for SE to make and I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that it would make for a better game to do away with penalty timers. I'm not personally affected by this very much but when I am, it really annoys me ("Why do I have to take a penalty because others were jerks to me?").

Whenever I go play another game for a 30 min period of time that I can't play FFXIV, I'm more likely to just continue playing that other game. That seems like the wrong type of influence for SE to exert.

[Mykll]

Well I didn't say "no penalties," I said "no penalty timers;" there are other ways to prevent players fishing for specific duties. For example, have roulette bonuses disappear after entering a duty rather than on completion. This idea isn't perfect (it's just a quick brainstorm anyway), but I think the possible consequences (like losing a bonus due to a votekick or DC) are less of a downside than disabling one's ability to play at all.

I'll go back to my prior idea. When you roll a Roulette, whatever dungeon or trial or whatever you get, the first time that day, you are stuck with for that day's bonus. No penalties for being kicked or DC. Almost completely eliminates the initial "I don't like this so I'll leave" part. They can forego their bonus for the day by not doing that dungeon that day, but they not getting another dungeon for that specific Roulette. If you get kicked, or DC, or whatever, next time that same day you queue up for the same Roulette, you are only queuing up for that single specific dungeon. Who knows how long of a wait that may be. But at least you won't lose your day's bonus, unless you choose to not get it.

[Stormrider]

Mostly Reasonable person

I am not sure if you run with most of the same people. But you seem to have a little bit of a dc between the type of general population in roulette. While I will not go so far as to say, wretched hive of scum and villainy. It can be pretty close. So let say Neverreap and Fractal should take between 25-30 mins. Most 51-60 also in the 25-30 range. The amount of hate, ridicule and disgust I have seen leveled at people for finishing in 31 mins. There are enough bad apples on a regular basis penalties need to be in place and people need to except the actions they take.

Your reasons are very valid, but we can not trust enough of the population to act in a decent manor. S E also says we don't allow tells in dungeon due to what we may believe lead to griefing. If that is the true reason I am not sure but it is what they put out. So players can't be trusted to behave so we have penalties.

[Assirra]

Your reasons are very valid, but we can not trust enough of the population to act in a decent manor. S E also says we don't allow tells in dungeon due to what we may believe lead to griefing. If that is the true reason I am not sure but it is what they put out. So players can't be trusted to behave so we have penalties.

No offense to you, but this attitude is one day going to remove chat in duty finder because it could potentially be used as abuse.

The whole "we need to remove everything that can possibly be harmful" never works since true assholes will always find a way and in the meantime you remove viable info/tools.
The amount of times i wanted to whisper someone in a dungeon annoys me.

[Purrfectstorm]

I am not sure if you run with most of the same people. But you seem to have a little bit of a dc between the type of general population in roulette. While I will not go so far as to say, wretched hive of scum and villainy. It can be pretty close. So let say Neverreap and Fractal should take between 25-30 mins. Most 51-60 also in the 25-30 range. The amount of hate, ridicule and disgust I have seen leveled at people for finishing in 31 mins. There are enough bad apples on a regular basis penalties need to be in place and people need to except the actions they take.

Your reasons are very valid, but we can not trust enough of the population to act in a decent manor. S E also says we don't allow tells in dungeon due to what we may believe lead to griefing. If that is the true reason I am not sure but it is what they put out. So players can't be trusted to behave so we have penalties.

I don't think I have a disconnect at all. I've been an avid player of this game since phase 3 beta and I've seen a ton of jerk players, but why anyone would want to encourage them to continue a duty with everyone else is beyond me. If they're going to be rude because a run takes an extra minute then why not votekick them or let them leave so you can get someone who might be a bit more chill about the run time? If it's that hard to find a pleasant replacement then we should all find a different game anyway.

I think a lot of the problems this community has come from not embracing the team nature of this game. Instead both sides of issues demonize each other. For instance, on this votekick issue there is one side that is like "There are jerk players and they will abandon the group in a duty and leave the rest of us in a bind, maybe because we don't know the fight or are a bit slow to clear" and the other side is like "I've run this duty 135353538398 times and want it to go as quickly as possible so I can collect my reward and move on to more fun things."

See neither side is wrong; the only thing wrong is that each side fails to acknowledge that each position is a perfectly legitimate position to hold.

[Mykll]

I think a lot of the problems this community has come from not embracing the team nature of this game. Instead both sides of issues demonize each other. For instance, on this votekick issue there is one side that is like "There are jerk players and they will abandon the group in a duty and leave the rest of us in a bind, maybe because we don't know the fight or are a bit slow to clear" and the other side is like "I've run this duty 135353538398 times and want it to go as quickly as possible so I can collect my reward and move on to more fun things."

See neither side is wrong; the only thing wrong is that each side fails to acknowledge that each position is a perfectly legitimate position to hold.

Again I still think that this really started with people abandoning a duty as soon as they entered, either not liking the duty itself or the party members. Them doing that is not embracing the team nature of this game.

If they've run a specific duty a million times, and want a fast run, they need to set up a PF for it. All them Brayflox HM PF speed runs. The problem with using DF (which is the same as using PF, except PF you can make the rules) is that you are encountering random people for a specific duty. The problem with Roulette, is that you ALSO get a random duty added on top of random people. If you get stuck with a duty and want your random duty reward, one side is saying don't bail, that is what RNG gave you, run it and get your reward.

Bailing as soon as you enter, or requesting a kick, has a completely different feel than having 20 minutes left and you just are nowhere near the final boss.

[IveraIvalice]

A week ago I had logged on quick to do one dungeon before I had to log off. As I got in there (tank) I pulled the first group and couldn't keep hate for the life of me. I realized what was happening, my gear was completely broken and I could only repair the accessories (gsm50) but none of the armor or weapon. So I said sorry to all of them, explained why I couldn't keep hate and asked to be kicked. They kicked me and I was able to repair and do another dungeon before I had to log off for the night. I believe it was a DR ex and I didn't have penalty because of it.

Whether people here would agree with this and me asking to be kicked, I don't care. I'm glad the party I was in understood The situation and I didn't have to lose a DR for the day because of the penalty

[LineageRazor]

A week ago I had logged on quick to do one dungeon before I had to log off. As I got in there (tank) I pulled the first group and couldn't keep hate for the life of me. I realized what was happening, my gear was completely broken and I could only repair the accessories (gsm50) but none of the armor or weapon. So I said sorry to all of them, explained why I couldn't keep hate and asked to be kicked. They kicked me and I was able to repair and do another dungeon before I had to log off for the night. I believe it was a DR ex and I didn't have penalty because of it.

Whether people here would agree with this and me asking to be kicked, I don't care. I'm glad the party I was in understood The situation and I didn't have to lose a DR for the day because of the penalty

It was very nice of them to do this, but depending on the paucity of tanks on your data center your mistake may have cost them the ability to do the run at all. It's not at all unusual for a run-in-progress to need to wait a half hour or more before a replacement tank shows up. You got your duty roulette for the night done, but there's no guarantee that the three you left behind did. Some of those DPS may have queued up with the knowledge that they MIGHT get an instance before they have to log for the evening - only for the tank to bugger off and leave them high and dry for the sake of their own convenience.

Of course, in your case, with your broken gear doing the run WITH you might have been as bad as abandoning the run entirely - but by receiving this kick, the only lesson you take away is, "I'm a tank, it doesn't matter if I forget to repair my gear. I can ask for kick, and get right back into action, no skin off my nose."

Lose that skin. Lose it again and again, and eventually you'll learn to be more careful with gear repairs. Take responsibility for your own mistakes, and make an effort to understand the burden it puts on others when you fail to do so. You're not eliminating your misfortune - you're tripling it, and laying it at the feet of the three folks unlucky enough to party with you.

[Twilite]

Totally bottomed out morale = vote dismiss. There's only so much masochism a person can endure.