If Paladin is "specialized in defense" shouldn't its defense be better always?

[RiisWolf]

In actual fights, even if they contain magic damage, PLD mitigates ridiculous amounts. . . . . So shield blocking magic might be too much. But I wouldn't care if a defensive class gets more defense.

Oh yes, and after all the CDs are gone, you better start praying to the white mage or RNGsus to save you.

And no, blocking magic wouldn't be too much. We as tanks want to build on defense, but the game is built around things of little effectiveness, which means things deal more forgiving damage. Couple that with the gimped threat multipliers and even more gimped capacity for producing it (low potencies+damage reduction) then you got yourselves loads of tanks who can get away with being pure STR, which devalues the defenses even more and us all look like glorified damage dealers with extra armor and it just so happens the PLD sucks the most in every aspect thanks to their glaring weaknesses and lack of strengths beyond the long CDs and RNG.

[Phoenicia]

Oh yes, and after all the CDs are gone, you better start praying to the white mage or RNGsus to save you.

Why are all your CDs gone? You should use your CDs to mitigate tank busters not random damage. If you properly use your CDs you'll never run out of CDs. Are we even tanking in the same game?

Blocking magic on a tank that already takes less damage than everyone else is a bit much. But as I said, I don't care if the defensive tank got more defense. It gives me more reasons to tell them to shut up about DPS.

All this garble about building defensively and threat multipliers... How does this relate? PLD threat multipliers are getting fixed, Yoshi-P said so. Low potencies? PLD has higher potencies than WAR. The difference is PLD's enmity just happens to be on its lowest combo.

[RiisWolf]

A1S: Seperate bosses, bad players, PLD can spend 99% of that fight in SwO as well as Hallowed the 2nd Plasma and allow for more healer DPS. With a NIN on the PLD's Oppressor and with proper SwO usage, the PLD would be a lot higher.

Most extremes, whenever there is two tanks had tank swapping in mind. It's why the tankbusters don't line up to the PLD's long CDs often; where as most fights that requires both tanks to tank a multi boss like the Oppressor 1.0&0.5 whom both do their tankbusterd up to 3 times over the course of roughly 8 minutes, the PLD would not have such issues. (Sad day for healing)

The part I find more frustrating about it all of this is that a lot of the PLDs I've seen that do make it in past content like coils and Odin, took the hits totally unmitigated, unless the busters were coupled with something else.

[Cygsiulle]

You can bypass the 1000 char limit by posting then editing your post.

In actual fights, even if they contain magic damage, PLD mitigates ridiculous amounts. Here is a post with some analysis. So shield blocking magic might be too much.

good to know about that limit thing. i'm starting to see a pattern with silly features here with work around making them kinda... stupid.

from the post you linked, the 2 classes do come off as similar, with the biggest difference i saw as the DA + DM giving the DRK a few more options for magic mitigation, since they have more skills to work with. putting a chance to block magic on the shield, and then mitigate it based on intelligence, as strength mitigates physical (or used to, i seem to recall reading something that removed this feature) even if at best they're only blocking around 15% of the time, for maybe 10% magic reduction on block, it gives them a more constant manner in which to deal with magic, as they should be able to do. this wouldn't quite put them above the DRK's stuff, but as those are based on actually using a skill with a cd, such a trade off wouldn't be that bad. (granted, i'm not advocating making shields actually block a % of damage, just using the % to give a vague estimation of what would actually be blocked after calculations)

[Phoenicia]

and for the really intensive fights, it would relegate them to the off tank role, which they already are anyway. they'd just be slightly squishier with a proper reason for having a higher damage output.

Please no, WARs want to main tank too! lol. It's already bad that WAR has the stigma of being an "OT class" when its toolkit screams "I'm more fit for MT!" No please, do not relegate it any further into the OT spot. There is nothing WAR does specifically as OT, it can't do as MT. It doesn't have casts that could be interrupted for example! (hint hint)

SE should be doing the opposite, it should give more reasons to make people WANT PLD or DRK OT. The main reason people are running PLD/WAR or DRK/WAR but not PLD/DRK is for that exact reason. Both PLD and DRK feel they are more fit for MT but not OT while it's not true. I was actually surprised DRK didn't bring its own slashing debuff.

Also large HP pools without proper mitigation are just "large MP drains". As a matter of fact, that is EXACTLY why WAR was bad in 2.0. There is a reason a healing boost is attached to Defiance. Just giving WAR a larger HP pool while killing its mitigation will make it worse than what it was at 2.0. Giving it parry is not good because parry is RNG and not reliable.

[RiisWolf]

Why are all your CDs gone? You should use your CDs to mitigate tank busters not random damage. If you properly use your CDs you'll never run out of CDs. Are we even tanking in the same game?

Low potencies? PLD has higher potencies than WAR.

Don't lie. You simply can't have CDs for every single unavoidable buster in fights where they spam it every 20~30 seconds. The only way you'd have a CD late in the fight is if you've been relying on the healers to buffer you instead, had healers carry you though hell(sort of redundant to the last point but I mean it to a more extreme level) and/or you swapped tanks. Or did you even do the final coils and Odin to know that?

Low potencies? PLD has higher potencies than WAR.

I'm just going to ignore you now. :|

[Phoenicia]

Don't lie. You simply can't have CDs for every single unavoidable buster in fights where they spam it every 20~30 seconds.

Inner Beast says Hello to you.

Inner Beast needs 7 GCDs to be recharged + 1 GCD to use. 7 x 2.5 = 17.5. + 2.5 = 20s. Any skillspeed reduces that "CD" and using Berserk, Vengeance and Raw Intuition reduce that by even further.

You're a warrior, don't you know your own class?

Also there isn't a single encounter where you have a buster every 20~30 seconds. Most frequent Buster was Death Sentence (35s) and it was supposed to be a tank swap fight. You also have Titan Ex with 35s table flips.

Hence I don't think we're playing the same game.

I'm just going to ignore you now. :|

Yes, look at the skills. Outside of Fell Cleave, EVERYTHING a WAR has a PLD has same or higher potency. Check this post.

I'll copy and paste:

DRKTotal Potency Per Minute
8400 Base
10063 w/ 5 Dark Arts + Darkside

PLD Total Potency Per Minute
8322 Base
9389 w/ FoF

WAR Total Potency Per Minute
6150
7380 w/ Maim

[Anger]

EDIT 2: I watched your A2S for funzies. How do you find these videos of such baddies? Are you intentionally looking for the worst examples possible? WAR doing 800 DPS in that fight is blasphemy! Lol.... I have videos of WARs doing over 1020 from 3 weeks ago (ilv190 weapon).

Essentially, every video on YouTube with a Paladin losing by much more than 5% as you previously stated, you will label a "baddie?" You do realize that there are TONS of these videos on YouTube blatantly showing a 20 - 30% damage lead in favor of the Warrior with few, if any, showing the Warrior losing the DPS race or that the percentage is within 5%.

You can look on YouTube for your self and call them all "baddies" if you'd like but there is a blatant truth that Warrior can do much, much greater damage than a Paladin and still tank the same fight with just as much ease.

Remember your entire analysis is surrounding YOUR personal experience. You need to look beyond that and realize that not everyone is going to be a "pro player" but that doesn't change the fact that the Warrior has a significant damage advantage. In essence, if the same skill level is applied to both classes the warrior will always lead DPS and tank just as well.

At this point, you're basically arguing what color the sky is and I'm saying it's blue.

[Drtoxicmedica]

Remember your entire analysis is surrounding YOUR personal experience. You need to look beyond that and realize that not everyone is going to be a "pro player" but that doesn't change the fact that the Warrior has a significant damage advantage. In essence, if the same skill level is applied to both classes the warrior will always lead DPS and tank just as well.

At this point, you're basically arguing what color the sky is and I'm saying it's blue.

What dps are you comparing here? the dps of the fight? It's gonna be favoring whoever was allowed to be in dps stance the longest or have to most uptime through out the fight. You have to look at the overall dps that can be put out by both tanks. Pally ot with warrior Mt will be more dps then a pally Mt and a warrior ot. They BOTH will put out respectable numbers if able to stay out of tank stance 100%of the fight. The dummy parses show the dps gap between all 3 are just rediculously low.

[RiisWolf]

Inner Beast says Hello to you.

Inner Beast needs 7 GCDs to be recharged + 1 GCD to use. 7 x 2.5 = 17.5. + 2.5 = 20s. Any skillspeed reduces that "CD" and using Berserk, Vengeance and Raw Intuition reduce that by even further.

You're a warrior, don't you know your own class?

Also there isn't a single encounter where you have a buster every 20~30 seconds. Most frequent Buster was Death Sentence (35s) and it was supposed to be a tank swap fight. You also have Titan Ex with 35s table flips.

Hence I don't think we're playing the same game.



Yes, look at the skills. Outside of Fell Cleave, EVERYTHING a WAR has a PLD has same or higher potency. Check this post.

I'll copy and paste:

DRKTotal Potency Per Minute
8400 Base
10063 w/ 5 Dark Arts + Darkside

PLD Total Potency Per Minute
8322 Base
9389 w/ FoF

WAR Total Potency Per Minute
6150
7380 w/ Maim

I'm going to make this part clear. I know I said I'm going to ignore but this. This is a perfect example why I'm going to ignore you. You twist things to make it sound like you know what you're talking about. Inner Beast is NOT a CD, taking time to build resources for it doesn't change that, and I am talking about Paladins. I wonder which part of that did you chose to exclude. I'm just not going to bother with someone who'd want to make up stuff, or my favorite "I can make it work therefore no problem" because it's an obvious fallacy. You can make underpowered things work but that doesn't mean it's not underpowered just because you can make it work. And if you don't understand that, then there's no point in arguing with you.

And here you go blindly just spout numbers from someone who admits they don't know warrior numbers, but lets not consider that part just so as long it supports what ever crap elitist argument you're trying to make. And nobody even liked that post you linked either. Every tank is stronger than the PLD, move on, focus on the important things such as their defense and why they usually aren't anyone's #1 choice to bring along.
Warriors can perpetually maintain a 33% damage boost anytime they want, PLDs can not. Add another 5% thanks to DPS stance. Mix all that with Berserk and you've literally doubled your non-crit damage, meaning that when you do a critical under this state, you've dealt triple the damage. And anytime a warrior bursts like that, a PLD is never going to be on top. It doesn't even take the best to see that.

And I'm not replying to you again. So argue how you think I'm not playing the game you made up all you want, but I'm going to play Final Fantasy 14: Heavensward where Paladins are underpowered and as rare as Fenrir(mount) because of it, and that DRK and WAR are way more common and better for and at the job right now. And the reason why this thread exists.