Why refusing customization is a fallacy

[Sandpark]

Classes are a nice starting point, yes.

Problem is, without any new skill, they'd be way too weak to particpate in any content at 60.

Well that would be on SE shoulder's if they did pursue that, not ours. What is the point of customization, if there is no content that supports that? You know what I mean?

[MageBlack]

My initial idea is different specs so that not every iteration of the same job will be 100% the same.
For example, a PLD spec who trades mitigation for a better offense, for people who prefer off-tanking, or a spec that improves your healing potency, etc...yet the three spec would still be tank specs.

The existence of jobs and classes point in the direction where they considered different roles between the class and one of its job, but, apparently, SCH is a "proof" that it doesn't work well, even though SMN and SCH are very efficient.

Then its happening. Just not as fast as you would probably like. With the first expansion alone we can see it beginning, best example I can give is the WAR. Before the expansion I could tank, and that was a bout it. I could take off defiance to do a little bit more damage with my "DPS" rotation but ultimately all i could do is tank. But now with the new "stance" (i keep forgetting what its called) I can output some serious damage, perhaps even outdoing the MCH .

This is about the best we can realistically expect going forward. more skills added to our current list that can help us offshoot in a different direction than the standard vision for the class. The devs have already admitted they want more variety in the skills, item stats, etc. The game is 5 years old with the first few years being a sort of working beta. They played it safe with the remake of 2.0 and by the time it was released they had already begun production of 3.0. without a crystal ball to know how popular it would become they continued the path of least resistance, and that's fine.

The nice thing is how unexpectedly popular the game was is it happened much quicker than expected. They anticipated needing at least a year to regain player trust and get players interested, so all their development plans were based around these expected numbers. blowing those numbers out of the water has created many challenges for them, at least as I can see it. Things like the housing situation (my personal beef) with an underwhelming amount of plots. I'm sure they thought, for their projected numbers when they began creating the content, that the plots they put in would be enough so some on the fly adjustments needed to be made and some emergency additions were put in place to help get through the rough patch. It was also evident in the server congestion at 2.0 launch, over crowded servers, etc. When your last attempt failed so miserably (1.0) it would be absolutely foolish to take a second run at it at full bore. Rather than trying to shatter records, they were hoping for at least a make the qualifiers

Like any other company, they have a budget to work within, a time frame to do it, and limited manpower to make it a reality. When they are committed to their course and things change as drastically as it did, what would have worked well under the previous game-plan is now falling short. Just thinking about the projection of needing about a year to get numbers to even match FFXI at its peak and 2.0 being a remake of the original content and story that was intended, only now is Yoshi-P working with what he would have envisioned for the initial launch of FFXIV if he had the reigns the whole time.

Were you present when the removal of the elemental wheel was explained? That got a lot of heat from people, and if they removed the elemental wheel, what on earth would make you think they will add in something as complex as skill trees. Also look at the reasoning he used for not being able to dye AF gear as well as no cross class glamors. He wanted people to be able to look at the class and know what to expect.

I would expect that by 4.0 we will see more of this customization and complexity that people seek. Developing a game like this does not happen over night and to implement the extent of what I've seen discussed here it would take years of reballancing pretty much the whole game. Let them do it in stages and at their pace. You need to stop foaming at the mouth over this, it helps nothing and gets you no where...

[Reynhart]

Then its happening. Just not as fast as you would probably like. With the first expansion alone we can see it beginning, best example I can give is the WAR. Before the expansion I could tank, and that was a bout it. I could take off defiance to do a little bit more damage with my "DPS" rotation but ultimately all i could do is tank. But now with the new "stance" (i keep forgetting what its called) I can output some serious damage, perhaps even outdoing the MCH .

That's not the same...because every WAR will still be the same.
It's not like you had to really "chose" if you want to specialize as a "Defiance" WAR or a "Deliverance" WAR. You're both, and every WAR is both.

The nice thing is how unexpectedly popular the game was is it happened much quicker than expected. [...]When your last attempt failed so miserably (1.0) it would be absolutely foolish to take a second run at it at full bore. Rather than trying to shatter records, they were hoping for at least a make the qualifiers

Don't get me wrong, I totally understand why they made FFXIV like this, and I love what the game has become (Mind you, I also think than 1.0 had several interesting ideas, but, eh, too bad)
Problem is, people put less and less time in game these days. Everybody wants everything NOW. And if you give them exatcly that, you pretty much can't go backwards, because the backlash would be even stronger.

For example, FFXI was atrocious with its quests. FFXIV offers you anything you need to know. So, they made just a little few quests where you really have to think and search (Like the broom quests).
First reaction ? "What are these bulls**t quests ?!"...sad

Were you present when the removal of the elemental wheel was explained?

Yes, I was, and I still thinks it's the same fallacy as the lack of customization. Back in 2.0, the strat for Ifrit Hard was to use caster LB to destroy all the nails before Hellfire. So, even if Ifrit took reduced damage from Fire or Ifrit-egi, you'd still took at least a SMN or a BLM in your party. And that also wouldn't have been a problem for BLM, hadn't they decide that the only "damaging" spells would be the Fire line.

[MageBlack]

That's not the same...because every WAR will still be the same.
It's not like you had to really "chose" if you want to specialize as a "Defiance" WAR or a "Deliverance" WAR. You're both, and every WAR is both.

I know its not the same as what you are asking for, I thought I said that. This is the best we will get is the expansion of what we have. They were clearly not happy with the ACN/SMN/SCH and how that branched so they wont be continuing that route. There was an interview with Yoshi-P a while back where he stated he saw problems with the armory system and wanted to make some major adjustments. so changes are in the works and being considered and I'm sure the input is welcome.

Don't get me wrong, I totally understand why they made FFXIV like this, and I love what the game has become (Mind you, I also think than 1.0 had several interesting ideas, but, eh, too bad)

For example, FFXI was atrocious with its quests. FFXIV offers you anything you need to know. So, they made just a little few quests where you really have to think and search (Like the broom quests).
First reaction ? "What are these bulls**t quests ?!"...sad

I think the two of us could have a great conversation about this. I was there the whole 1.0 as well and at the time of the players polls, I didnt feel it was worth saving or continuing the course so I voted for the overhaul option. BUT. After that, as it grew and changed and the lag got betterish, jobs were added, special skills could be purchased, etc. I was really starting to like it. I think a mixture of 1.0 2.0 and FFXI would be phenomenal.

And don't get me wrong, I like the complexity in games, the elemental wheel, branching choices for customization, more complex skills, better gear stats, etc. I was disappointed when some of that stuff was removed but I'm enjoying the game for what it is. In the end its a game, one of millions available at my fingertips. It's not like when i was younger and you didnt know a game existed until you saw it on the shelf at a store or if you were lucky, in a nintendo power magazine and you only had maybe a handful of new games to choose from in any given year. I think players are getting altogether too entitled about their opinions in todays world but thats a completely separate conversation.

Problem is, people put less and less time in game these days. Everybody wants everything NOW. And if you give them exatcly that, you pretty much can't go backwards, because the backlash would be even stronger.

This is a big sticking point with me. Ok, I will give you that there might be some people that are like that, but they are of the same percentage as the elitist that nothing is ever hard enough for them. In both cases those groups arent the ones catered to, nor should they be. The largest player pools that this game is targeted for and reaching are players that have never played an MMO before (which will be lots of console users cause look at how many MMO's consoles have) and casuals, like myself. The generation of gamers that helped make the medium popular are now older, have full time jobs, extracurricular commitments, and families. It's rather insulting when I hear "filthy Casual" thrown around like its people like me ruining the game because I am the casual that is targeted. I love games, play as often as I am able, but I dont have the time commitment to sit down for 6hours a day to feel like I made some kind of progression (I'm looking at you Yhoter Jungle!!!!) I want to be able to hop in, Run a daily or two and feel I actually did something.

I also do want to see the tough challenging complex content there too for the times I am able to play longer and want that challenge and stuff that satisfies the craving people like yourself have for challenge. Maybe I just have a different lens than you when I look at the game, maybe I'm just more willing to take a sacrifice in a few areas of the game for the sake of others less skilled than myself to get into a game like this that might not have otherwise. It's how the medium will grow. When I want the chew-my-controller- frustrating challenge, I'll pick up Dark Souls, when i want strategic calculated combat, I'll pick up FF Tactics. When I want to zone out to something while I take a crap, I'll play angry birds. Last I checked, I didnt need a single game to fullfill all my content cravings.

Yes, I was, and I still thinks it's the same fallacy as the lack of customization. Back in 2.0, the strat for Ifrit Hard was to use caster LB to destroy all the nails before Hellfire. So, even if Ifrit took reduced damage from Fire or Ifrit-egi, you'd still took at least a SMN or a BLM in your party. And that also wouldn't have been a problem for BLM, hadn't they decide that the only "damaging" spells would be the Fire line.

I think my only problem is the strong language you and many other posters like to use, as if to drive home the exaggerated importance and urgency of the changes you would like to see. That in itself is a fallacy. Could they have kept all that stuff and built on it? Probably. would the game then be more successful as a result? If people are having issues with some of the earlier content, like AV with the games current setup, they would not have stuck with it. but look at how the game has changed from 2.0 to now. even levelling from 1-50 had a steady growth and complexity in its own right. 3.0 built on that however small it might be. If they keep the trend of MSQ requirements for unlocking expansions, then that allows for complexity growth as a requirement to access future content. Steps of Faith was a great check to see if you can handle content in the expansion. You cant beat that, you wont last in 3.0. I also see potential with the new Alex Story mode, its an easier way to seperate casual content from hardcore content, that way they dont need to always cater to the lowest denominator.

Anywa, I'm terribly sorry for the rant. Been seeing this post come up a lot in the forums nd arguments get more and more heated about some silly technicalities and, like the nosy bugger i am, felt I should put in my 2 gil.

Sorry for the rant and thank you for listening.

[Bovinity]

I dunno, "customization" in MMOs always seems to just suck up a ton of balance and development time for little more than an illusion of "being your own character" or something.

I'd rather just see the time and balancing effort put into content, not into some "talent trees" or something that 99% of people will just copy from a guide somewhere.

[Xerius]

Let's be honest, you don't want customization you want optimization. Customization implies opportunity cost, meaning that if you pick one perk there's an equally good perk that you are now disqualified from. The scenario that I've just stated never happens in a customization system because everyone just picks the perks that best benefit their job because it's too difficult to balance every choice to be equal especially in a game like FFXIV where there are very few stat choices that you have to make.

[Skullmaker]

With the system built the way it is, "customization" can only come through the addition of unique items with unique powers and stat bonuses. Movement speed, stun, increased attack speed and everything else should be on the table.
Despite the developer's opinion that folks would not be allowed into groups without such equipment, such was never true in FF11. If anything, you were acknowledged as a "lucky bastard" to have killed the NM that dropped the item and
won your roll against the rng gods. No one ever told me to leave a party because I didn't have a kraken club, or an empress earring.

[Xerius]

No one ever told me to leave a party because I didn't have a kraken club, or an empress earring.

FFXI was a game where the gear was mostly side-grades, not upgrades. Up until around ToAU and WotG it was very rare to have a piece that was objectively better than another piece with the exception of main-hands. Most people wore their level 50 artifact armor until level 75. FFXIV isn't like that and if you need evidence of this then look at DF. There's instances you literally can not enter unless you meet a certain ilvl requirement making your point void. You're comparing apples to oranges here.

[Skullmaker]

There's instances you literally can not enter unless you meet a certain ilvl requirement making your point void. You're comparing apples to oranges here.

Well, I was only really considering the idea of customization based on gear since it seems unlikely we'll get a skill tree, but, isn't it true that once inside a duty you can switch gear to what you want as long as it's wearable by your class?

[Xerius]

Well, I was only really considering the idea of customization based on gear since it seems unlikely we'll get a skill tree, but, isn't it true that once inside a duty you can switch gear to what you want as long as it's wearable by your class?

I agree that we could use more unique gear stats and I don't actually know if you can change gear to go below the ilvl once you're in a dungeon, I suspect that you probably can. However, if someone is doing that, they're probably trolling because they could contribute to the party (they obviously met the requirements to get in). However, they're choosing not to, just to be a jerk.