Why refusing customization is a fallacy

[Warlyx]

And this would be a good thing if it were true. No one likes to be excluded from content just because they don't have the right job.

Your SAM example is also a prime example of the issues with FFXI's lack of balance. You managed to work your way around the system because you had the tools for it. Several jobs wouldn't have had the problems you had, others would have it much worse.

A bst could go naked and solo the hell out of this mobs , same goes for NIN/DNC or DNC/NIN , PUP , RDM and dependding on what type of mobs BLM/SCH could solo it with easy.

some jobs are far better at soloing stuff than others? yes happens in every mmorpg , u dont balance around "soloing" because then the game will be a mess

[FallenArisen0990]

The game (rather, MMOs in general) being dumbed down because people dont want to 'deal with things'.

Go play Dark Souls or something. I don't need stupid insta-kill mechanics just to clear a fight. Fighting a Boss 3247683479349 times just for gear and having one little mistake cost you the fight for everyone is stupid. That's not Difficulty at all. 2x Damage and 2x HP is not difficulty. It's a luck base mechanic that should only be in single player games. Wiping because of someone's shenanigans is not difficulty but an annoyance that's isn't needed when you just want to clear a fight, get drops and move on.

[Aeyis]

Go play Dark Souls or something. I don't need stupid insta-kill mechanics just to clear a fight. Fighting a Boss 3247683479349 times just for gear and having one little mistake cost you the fight for everyone is stupid. That's not Difficulty at all. 2x Damage and 2x HP is not difficulty. It's a luck base mechanic that should only be in single player games. Wiping because of someone's shenanigans is not difficulty but an annoyance that's isn't needed when you just want to clear a fight, get drops and move on.

Making a mistake, or it being entirely luck based. Which is it? Those two are polar opposite.
In addition, FFXIV has many instant kill mechanics.


I do not understand your argument, what are you trying to say?
That you would like to go into a dungeon or raid and oneshot it while watching the television?


If that is your argument, then it only reinforces my observation.
Which I'll mention again:

MMOs have become more bland, less interesting; because the audience they are intended for have no interest in challenge. They have no interest in something they have to but time or effort into figuring out.

[Delily]

How is Alex Savage going for you? Plus your "current generation" claim is rather old and tired.

[Ditto]

Why is everyone throwing the word 'Fallacy' around now?

Did everyone just learn the word or something?

[Khalithar]

I'm personally not against skill trees, but the devs would have to very carefully implement it. The best way to do skill trees in my opinion, would be to balance them in such a way where the choices are legitimately competitive with one another and that there is no "best" or optimal way.

Now I've seen the sentiment thrown around of "who cares what's optimal?" and I certainly appreciate the thought, but what happens? Eventually some theorycrafter does the math and figures out what's optimal in a raid/group scenario and soon people begin to post about it. Someone asks in the game, "what should I spec?" and they are told to look it up online and they find the evidence of the optimal spec in that same thread.

Soon when someone asks them what's optimal they tell them what to spec and soon the whole thing snowballs until it reaches the point where everyone (whether they group or not) must be that spec or they are considered a bad player for not knowing how to spec their own class. This happens in every game and those in higher end group content will often do whatever it takes to max out their dps/hps even for something as paltry as a theoretical 1% gain.

So how can we do customization without that happening? I have to go by the suggestion of someone in another thread (I can't remember who you are but I applaud your idea) about making the customization purely aesthetic. Using BLM as an example, give them a talent tree to change the color of their fire, no changes to mechanics but let them have a choice of blue fire, purple fire, or green fire. That way there is customization but by keeping it purely aesthetic, the debate about "optimal" won't work.

[StouterTaru]

Why is everyone throwing the word 'Fallacy' around now?

Did everyone just learn the word or something?

I think everyone just caught season 2 of Breaking Bad recently.

[FallenArisen0990]

Text.

Yea, in content where it should be, in optional content. We live in a new age my friend. As fun as XIV can be, I do like to play other things while others have limited time to play. Difficulty for all current content is exactly where it should be.

[Havenae]

The real fallacy is ignoring that this game can't increase it's level cap indefinitely and alternate forms of advancement will be needed. Character progression is just as important of an aspect in MMO design as content progression 'can be'. Perhaps more so.

Then there's the sentiment that ALL skill/talent/AA systems have to be exactly like they are in WoW because most people have only played WoW or played FFXI. Systems can be developed that promote optimization while still giving players choices. It doesn't need to be all or nothing like so many perceive it to be. Things can be done differently, I assure you. Their ways are NOT the only ways. For instance WoW's underlying issues with their skill trees was an over-reliance on stat adjustments. Where in an MMO stats are basically everything in terms of performance, so of course there's only going to be one 'optimized' path to take.

The problem is most people don't see the forest for the trees. They see one or two systems and say, "Well that doesn't ever work." The believe they already know but fail to recognize their own short-sightedness in the matter. But they're right so nothing anyone tells them is going to change their mind because they're most definitely wrong. It's the ultimate form of ignorance and it's rampant like a raped ape with a fungal infection on these forums.

MMOs have become more bland, less interesting; because the audience they are intended for have no interest in challenge. They have no interest in something they have to but time or effort into figuring out.

And no MMOs have become bland because no developer wants to try to innovate. They want to 'play it safe' and use the same design concepts that have been employed for the last two decades. Meanwhile the audience really hasn't changed much. Except for the fact that most of us have gotten older. Got jobs, had kids, got married and no longer have the time to sit in front of a screen for hours on end to grind away at overly complicated content mechanics which are made so simply for the sake of over-complication and not in the interest of making content challenging. Complexity and challenge are not synonymous, although SE and Yoshida seem to be under the impression that they are.

[Reynhart]

Soon when someone asks them what's optimal they tell them what to spec and soon the whole thing snowballs until it reaches the point where everyone (whether they group or not) must be that spec or they are considered a bad player for not knowing how to spec their own class. This happens in every game and those in higher end group content will often do whatever it takes to max out their dps/hps even for something as paltry as a theoretical 1% gain.

Look at the numerous thread either here or on reddit where people ask "What is the best <insert_role_here> to play ?" or "How do I spec my Zeta ?", etc...
The answers are always the same "For endgame raiding, chose THIS (And then people start to insult each other because THIS is "bulls*t" or whatever) but for other content, play what you like because everything is fine"
And then realize that "endgame raiding" is the goal of, again, only 5 to 10% percent of the community.

People on this thread reacts like one spec will give uber-ultra-DPS-Turbo-Edition and the other will be only useful on killing critters...
For the BLM, what if only "Ice Mage" get the higher tiers of Umbral Ice, or a proc where after casting Blizzard, the next Blizzard III or Freeze spell has a chance to put a "Frozen" debuff for a set duration, and that a Frozen enemy receive additionnal damage when physically hit ?

Which one is better ? Well, one is a better pure self DPS, but the other can be better as a whole depending on the party DPS. You could easily create traits and alter spells to make specs different, and you'll create the same flame wars as now between different jobs...

The problem is most people don't see the forest for the trees. They see one or two systems and say, "Well that doesn't ever work."

And those purposely forgot that the meta changes several times through the lifespan of an online game. Isn't League Of Legends famous for switching back and forth what is the "best champion" because people still found new ways of playing them ?

And no MMOs have become bland because no developer wants to try to innovate. They want to 'play it safe' and use the same design concepts that have been employed for the last two decades.

They want to play it safe because players complain as soon as they have to "think".
Diablo 2 ? Let's imagine some buils and try lots of skills. Diablo 3 ? Let's have all the skills available because we don't want the "burden" of creating our own character.

FFXIV v1 ? Plz, remove the physical level, it's sooooo complicated to spend our stat points wisely if we wan't to create either a specialist or a jack-of-all-trades.
And yes, I realize the the physical level had flaws in v1, but instead of adjusting it, they decided to scrap it completely because people cried over and over. So, in v2, they gave stat point distribution back, yeah ! But it's useless, since almost every job use only one stat.

And they even remove the effect of STR and DEX on something else than attack power. Technically, they could fuse the two under "physical attack" and it would be the same, since gear are restricted, already.