Why refusing customization is a fallacy

[Aeyis]

Well you know how you queue for a roulette and you get Steps of Faith or Bismark and people start jumping ship immediately. Same reaction when they see Blizzard Mage.

Altho just my personal experience. I noticed the opposite when I played less attractive classes or specs in wow (or other games) and did well with them.

However, as someone else mentioned that we should think about others.
Perhaps thats a very wrong way of thinking.


Maybe we should be more considerate of others, and think more about ourselves.


As I used to say in WoW: ''I dont care what class or spec you bring, enjoy what you enjoy playing most. Just play your a game on whatever you do bring.''

Which I think is very reasonable since I personally always aimed to bring my SS game myself. (did not always work, but hey they arent proper standards if you can reach them reliably)


Frankly speaking I'd be more alarmed when a tank falls off, or in one attempt a guy uses LB on Bismarck while standing on the island.
You know, the kind thing that actually matters, and that you cant calculate beforehand?

for raw numbers to operate with. As those the real thing that matter.

Per defination, numbers are not real.
Unless you define reality itself as theoretical, I suppose.

Damn, I just killed my own argument.
Well nevermind that!

Eh, your topic is wrong, there is no fallacy in refusing customization, the fallacy is in not understanding the complexity of creating content for PVE based on all the variables you offer to PVE without alienating certain job setups from the game.

This is solved by having more then a single path of progression. More then a single endgame. Creating anything is complex. And its people that alienate others.

Unless content is literally balanced so that you cannot possible clear it with all of x class as dps, or without having a ''custom'' skill: jobs wont be alienated by the system.


For example in wow fire mages were not a thing in Molten Core. Because most mobs in there were immune to fire damage. That said, it was not like the frost tree was useless, as there were other parts of the game that could be played; not just MC Raid[s]er/[]ing.

This is ofcourse an extreme example, as this customization is more then just a different ability or effect, it tremendously changed the gameplay of the specs to the point where it literally effected where you could go.

Now as far as complexity goes. I will disrespectfully disagree with your statement that designing FFXIV endgame is (relatively) complex. Does it require more time and effort? Yes. Each variable you add increases the time you need to spend calculating and considering. But that doesnt really make it that much more complex.

For me, balance is fun. I come from Ragnarok Online, which had a huge degree of customization, but in the end it came down to exactly what other people who have played other MMOs with extensive customization have been saying: certain builds are deemed to be the best and then people either follow those builds or get given grief for not doing so.

Which is fine if you're only interested in doing solo content, but not much fun at all if you want to play in groups. The customization process itself wasn't fun, either: I spent literally hours on end grinding mobs to get the right cards to put on my gear so that I would have good stats and abilities.

There's no reason to add skill trees or different specs to a game that already allows you to play all of the classes on one character. If you want variety, you can simply pick up a different class-- you're not stuck with one thing. There's even a certain amount of customization you can already do with the classes themselves (VIT vs. STR on tanks, the examples other people have given for healers, etc.). Adding more stats/specs would be unnecessarily complicated and would bring no real benefit in exchange.

I came from RO as well. And ill say it again: its people causing grief. I played outlandish or ''standard'' builds all the time.
Im guessing your reason to give RO as an example comes down to personal experiences with this.
Because RO is actually a pretty good example of where customization worked:

-you had vit priests, agi priests, healing priests of various stats. And thats just general builds. Everyone would have their own idea on how much vit, int or str to add to their hunter for example; their own preferences. There was no ''ideal'' build.

VIT vs STR, the example you used is only possible on accessories, and only for tanks since VIT has added value for them.
There is virtually no customization in this game, so im not surprised you grasp for this straw.



Also im sorry you had to grind for hours for great rewards. Currently in HW the crafters have to grind for many hours each week, for virtually no reward.
That's off-topic yes. So is your argument, what does grinding have to do with customization?

[Reynhart]

Is this so called "ice mage" really a thing?

No, it's not a thing. But, I'm speaking of Frost Mage as an hypothetical spec where your Ice spells would be enchanced by traits.

You can cry all you want about customization, but as long as there will be timed dps checks and every single job boiled down to bare bone functioning (all the fancy animations and graphical shinies removed) will be identical how they work and what they do, ppl will look past they shinies and will look for raw numbers to operate with. As those the real thing that matter.

Thank you for this insight. And it's a real thank you, and let me explain why.

Nowadays, you see a lot of threads where PLD complains that they're left behind, especially when it comes to DPS. And a lot of answers pointing that their DPS is high enough for any content so that it's not a big deal.
It's exactly the same with specs. IF the "Frost Mage" can pass the DPS check in an "average" party setup, then it's not a big deal if the "Fire Mage" deals a little more damage (Keep in mind that a "Frost Mage" spec would offer something "better" than the Fire Mage, even if it's not raw damage).

As for extremely tight DPS check, the only content to use them is Alex Savage, and we come back to "only 5% of the playerbase will need that level of min-maxing".

Well you know how you queue for a roulette and you get Steps of Faith or Bismark and people start jumping ship immediately. Same reaction when they see Blizzard Mage.

Good, let them eat the 30 minutes penalty because they're morons.

And again, stop considering that a "Frost Mage" would do 50% less DPS than a "Fire Mage"...
People don't leave en masse the Duty Finder when they realize the healer is an Astro or that one DPS is a Machnist...


Oh, and now that I think of it, someone mentionned how FFXI was a proof that jobs would be excluded like DRG, or PUP...
I wonder if anyone realizes that those jobs were actually awesome and that people who didn't want them were just idiots following a trend by the toxic community ?

[MilesSaintboroguh]

Is this so called "ice mage" really a thing? I never seen any BLMs use Blizzard only and I won't understand why people would do it to begin with other than trolling.

[CyrilLucifer]

Is this so called "ice mage" really a thing? I never seen any BLMs use Blizzard only and I won't understand why people would do it to begin with other than trolling.

I didn't think it was, but I saw one in DF in Darkhold about two days ago. It seemed quite serious, or at least very devoted to its trolling.

It was one of the slowest dungeon runs I've ever done.

[gzuscry]

Customization is not the problem, ppl just fail to realize that this game and every other mmo who labels itself as rpg nowdays is designed in way where is is this one treshhold caled dps check. No skill/creativity/thinking is ever required to do active fighting. All the boss fights are desingned in rat labyrinth fashion, you just run in every direction until you find the food. You can argue that executing rotation is "da skill", but even that aspect is made cookie cutter aplication for EVERY single fight that happens, happened and will be introduces in future.
They way i feel the fighting is with hitting and recievieng if you boil it down is no different then juggling beads on abacus back and forth. In a way to me active combat healing class is mysterry to this day, there realy is no logical concept behind action of 'to be healed in active combat'. I think that healing class as part of holy trinity in the concepts it was concieved will die when humanity will adopt real virtual reality gaming as it is depicted in SAO. Healers in essence are just potions you spamed when you played diablo 2. Even if i look through roleplayers fantasy eyes, even then I cannot think of any logicaly acceptable reason how healer as he is in videogames could possibly function.

You can cry all you want about customization, but as long as there will be timed dps checks and every single job boiled down to bare bone functioning (all the fancy animations and graphical shinies removed) will be identical how they work and what they do, ppl will look past they shinies and will look for raw numbers to operate with. As those the real thing that matter.

[Miscreant]

Customization is not the problem, ppl just fail to realize that this game and every other mmo who labels itself as rpg nowdays is designed in way where is is this one treshhold caled dps check. No skill/creativity/thinking is ever required to do active fighting. All the boss fights are desingned in rat labyrinth fashion, you just run in every direction until you find the food. You can argue that executing rotation is "da skill", but even that aspect is made cookie cutter aplication for EVERY single fight that happens, happened and will be introduces in future.
They way i feel the fighting is with hitting and recievieng if you boil it down is no different then juggling beads on abacus back and forth.

This really depends on what type of player you are, there are multiple ways of doing most fights. If you work on progression there is a hell of a lot more work that just doing a dps check. Players have to read over the tool tips of every ability the boss casts, watch every mechanic and hit closely and then debate the best method to handle each different aspect. Groups can spend a good 15-20 minutes just standing there in between pulls going over this stuff. Just because you watch guides and get spoon feed you the difficult part of the fights, doesn't mean that they are just dps checks for everyone else, it just means you took the easy way out. There's nothing wrong with watching guides if they are available for what you are working on, but figuring out mechanics is a lot harder than dps checks, and there is a lot of freedom with strategy in this game.

So in short, you are mistaken, this game isn't just one big dps check.

[Leshpar]

Let's talk about vanilla and BC WoW for a sec, back when things weren't balanced at all. Basically back then each class only had one respected spec. If you were any of the other specs you were either laughed at or not taken in parties at all (no dungeon finder existed either, so you had to join other people's parties or form your own in trade chat). My husband played a fury warrior back then. This is basically a dps version of the accepted tank (prot). The class offered good dps, but no crowd control (extremely important in dungeons back then) and ... well, wasn't a tank. So he got overlooked a lot in groups unless I insisted on bringing him with me.

There are tons more examples, but the basic point remains the same: choice doesn't matter if its not balanced properly. Everyone wants to have fun and be included. The only way to do that is either make the content so easy you could do it with a single player or balance everything extremely well.

I love the class system this game has. Its awesome that I'll never have to make an alt. I love being able to do everything on one character. I do not think this game needs specs for each class. Though, if they could balance it, it would be a welcome addition. I don't see it happening though.

[Reynhart]

Let's talk about vanilla and BC WoW for a sec, back when things weren't balanced at all. Basically back then each class only had one respected spec. If you were any of the other specs you were either laughed at or not taken in parties at all (no dungeon finder existed either, so you had to join other people's parties or form your own in trade chat). My husband played a fury warrior back then. This is basically a dps version of the accepted tank (prot). The class offered good dps, but no crowd control (extremely important in dungeons back then) and ... well, wasn't a tank. So he got overlooked a lot in groups unless I insisted on bringing him with me.

I've only played WoW for a little time and at low level, so I'm mostly speculating.
I think the difference is precisely because their wasn't any dungeon finder.

Like it or not, the Duty Finder implies more flexibility when you design dungeons. You can't make a dungeon where you'll assume that every party will have the "best" tank, the "best" healer or the "best DPS". So, their mechanics are focused on something else, wether it be dodging, focusing on the right target, etc...even the DPS check that you find in Duty Finder content are pretty forgiving, because they need to be doable by any party setup.

This is also why Coil was nerfed.
Why did they make ADS Paralyze weaker ? Because it's not uncommon to end with a DF party without any BRD of PLD so that you can't silence it.
Why didn't Renaud killed you in one hit ? Because you can end with a party without any ranged DPS, so you need to pick up Renauds at close range.
Why is Alex far easier than Coil at launch ? Because it's in the Duty Finder.

The ONLY content where optimal party setup is a real thing is out of the Duty Finder, so for now, Rav and Bis EX, and Alexander Savage.
Lots of people probaly didn't clear Rav/Bis Ex before gathering several i180 pieces, or even 190 (I cleared all floors of Alex before Bis EX), and now, the DPS check is far less demanding, as long as you know how to play your job.
I'd take a really competent BRD or MNK over a bad BLM or DRG, even if the "numbers" say that their max DPS is slightly weaker.

So, again, except for really hard and demanding content, a small discrepancy between jobs would not be a big thing, since it's ALREADY not a big thing.
And for those who participate in this demading content, please theorycraf all you want so you'll find what specs is the absolute best for each job. I'm sure you'll even like searching for it...

That's why I'm saying the fear of imbalance is a fallacy. Because it's already in the game (And it will always be, unless you have only one job per role) and yet the games work fine. And adding more jobs will create more discrepancy too, so your fear should be the same.

[Reynhart]

Dodging landslide was not a DPS check.
Killing both Caduceus at the same time was not a DPS check.
Placing Fireballs and Conflags was not a DPS check.
Placing Divebombs was not a DPS check.
Dodging Twisters was not a DPS check.
Killing adds far from bone dragon was not a DPS check.
Standing on platform to protect from Ancient Flare was not a DPS check.
Maneuveuring for Body Slam was not a DPS check.
Standing still for Blighted Bouquet was not a DPS check.
Dodging or being eaten by Rafflesia was not a DPS check.
Looking elsewhere for Cursed Voice and Petrifaction wasn't a DPS check.
Placing Homing missiles and Gaseous Bomb was not a DPS check.
Placing Meteors was not a DPS check.
Managing Fire-in, fire-out was not a DPS check.
Placing Divebombs (Again) was not a DPS check.
Grabing electric orbs was not a DPS check.
Tank swapping after Heat Lighting was not a DPS check.
Packing for Wild charge was not a DPS check.
Getting mini to enter Cerberus' belly was not a DPS check.

Damn, it's funny how many mechanics this game had where DPS don't need to be optimized...
And I'm sure the list goes on...

[HorseBoots]

Dodging landslide was not a DPS check.
Killing both Caduceus at the same time was not a DPS check.
Placing Fireballs and Conflags was not a DPS check.
Placing Divebombs was not a DPS check.
Dodging Twisters was not a DPS check.
Killing adds far from bone dragon was not a DPS check.
Standing on platform to protect from Ancient Flare was not a DPS check.
Maneuveuring for Body Slam was not a DPS check.
Standing still for Blighted Bouquet was not a DPS check.
Dodging or being eaten by Rafflesia was not a DPS check.
Looking elsewhere for Cursed Voice and Petrifaction wasn't a DPS check.
Placing Homing missiles and Gaseous Bomb was not a DPS check.
Placing Meteors was not a DPS check.
Managing Fire-in, fire-out was not a DPS check.
Placing Divebombs (Again) was not a DPS check.
Grabing electric orbs was not a DPS check.
Tank swapping after Heat Lighting was not a DPS check.
Packing for Wild charge was not a DPS check.
Getting mini to enter Cerberus' belly was not a DPS check.

Caduceus' ever-building damage stacks on both snakes served as a DPS check and soft-enrage.
Conflags were a DPS check. You were putting fireballs in the conflag to increase the time allowed to meet said check.
Killing adds before they reach a death zone is a DPS check.
Rafflesia's honey bees were a DPS check.
Rafflesia's Slugs in the final phase were a DPS check.
Killing T7 Adds were a DPS check, (The final add buffs and heals the boss if you fail to kill it in time.)
T8 was literally a training dummy that shot lasers and missles.
Golems were a DPS check.
The Ghost was a DPS check.
T10 Add phase was a DPS Check.
T12 Birds was a DPS check.
T13 Zoo was a DPS check.
Savage Faust is a DPS check.
Phase 1 of Oppressor Savage is a DPS check.
Bismark: The Fight is a DPS check.
Ravana's butterflys are a DPS check.
Literally every single enrage timer serves as an overall DPS check.


Your ignorance as to what is a DPS check is astounding to say the least.