Why refusing customization is a fallacy

[Miscreant]

you could spec you BLM a Frost Mage, doing around 20 or 30% less DPS than Fire Mage, but putting more debuff. Who will care when, by being full ilvl220, you'll be doing 40% more DPS than people will do now not being full 190 ?

You can't just make up numbers for this kind of stuff, where does this 40% come from? Skill does massively outclasses gear, I see players in i170 doing less dps than good players were doing in 130 at level 50 in FCoB.

Back in 2.5, Relics Zeta were the absolute best weapons. Yet, people would still clear content without wearing one.

By that point all of the content had been cleared and nerfed with echo, no one really cared anymore.

I'm not really against customisation, it would definitely add another element to the game, but do you really think that players who can't learn a basic rotation will actually benefit from it? it will just make the gap between casuals and raiders even larger.

[FallenArisen0990]

You're kidding right? Skill Trees are the most pointless customization I ever seen in my life. I can understand if we weren't allowed to change Jobs. But.... We are allowed to change Jobs on the fly so want to DPS? Switch to a DPS. Want to Heal? Go switch to a Healer. Want to Tank? Switch to a Tank.

[Reynhart]

You can't just make up numbers for this kind of stuff, where does this 40% come from? Skill does massively outclasses gear, I see players in i170 doing less dps than good players were doing in 130 at level 50 in FCoB.

What ?! What does skill have to do in balance. I'm not comparing bad players to good players. I'm comparing players of equal skill with a far better average ilvl. You can't say that WHM heals far better than SCH because the SCH doesn't mind to summon his fairy ir just spam physick...
Now tell, me the difference wasn't huge when you went from ilvl100 to ilvl130.

By that point all of the content had been cleared and nerfed with echo, no one really cared anymore.

No, by that time, all the serious raiders didn't cared anymore. And I'm sure those people would love to min-max every spec. Believe it or not, most people haven't cleared Bahamut, even with echo, even now. And if those people want to clear it now, they could do it with whatever spec they chose, thanks to gear and echo. And those pople massivelu outnumbers the ones that care about min-maxing.

I'm not really against customisation, it would definitely add another element to the game, but do you really think that players who can't learn a basic rotation will actually benefit from it? it will just make the gap between casuals and raiders even larger.

The gap was already "6 month" large in ARR, and in Heavensward, with Alexander Savage, I'm sure the gap will only go wider and wider.

Apples and Oranges. I'd rather SE work into adding new jobs and keeping them balanced than work on trying to juggle the balance of several specs on each job.

For what ? It's not like there's a lot of ways to play a tank, a healer, or a DPS. WAR and PLD were totally different in 2.0. And to keep balance, they gave WAR damage mitigation, pretty much like PLD. We have a new tank now, which...a reskinned PLD with even the exact same tank stance. MCH and BRD are exatcly the same, based on proc, AoE based buffs, and even a stance that add casting times to their skills.

You want to add another melee ? It'll have combos, like DRG and NIN ? Or stance like MNK ? Or positions like DRG, MNK and NIN ?

Do you realize why the egi-glamour was so well received ? Because every SMN will be able to chose what egi he'll use. Will it change something on their DPS ? No, but they'll like to have their favored egi by their side.

As for the "fun" part, why do we still have people playing NIN, DRG, and MNK while only one of them was the best at any given time ? Because they like the gameplay, even if their DPS is not the most potent one...because it's fun.

[Miscreant]

snip

Sorry but your wording was bad, I read it wrong. You are aware that there already is a certain degree of customisation in place, e.g. a Scholar who focuses on healing will want to prioritise Crit, a Scholar who focuses on DPS prioritises Det and Accuracy, if I'm doing a A2 without a bard I may want to switch out some gear and stack up Piety, then I use the appropriate food to complement this build, e.g. in A1 I use Crit+Accuracy food where as in A2 I eat Piety food.

Early into progression Tanks stack up Vitality, once the mechanics are solid they then stack up Strength to help meet the dps checks. Early in FCoB progression dps melded Vitality into their builds to help survive and play out mechanics in T13, once they were more comfortable they changed their builds to allow for greater dps. The thing is casual players don't need to do these things because Echo does it for them, they just go with the pre set BiS build that progression players have already pre-determined, the same will happen with customisation, progression players will say this build works the best, share it on reddit and everyone will copy once it become available to them.

The game is balanced fairly well right now, because of it most roles are fine for Alexander, yes even Astro's... Yoshi-P is right by saying if we add in more in depth customisation players are going to find set builds and make them requirements for raiding, with this it will be harder for the Devs to balance the Jobs and it will lead to certain jobs being excluded all together.

But were just going to go around in circles now, this argument is old, tired and boring.

[Erepio]

u can customise your character just fine..the game has a little something called "able to play all jobs/classes on one character"

why in the world would SE lets say make Warrior a dps tree/talent/whatever when they can just add Viking job in the game, want a dps Paladin heres a Knight job, Monk tank no problem play a Black Belt etc

[Remus]

When people say you won't be taken because you are not the optimal spec is completely wrong. I have played numerous games where they have 3 tress sometimes I pick the worse one but that didn't stop me from doing content. SWTOR right now marauder/sentinel isn't doing so well as a dps and classed as the lowest currently because you can't do hybrid anymore I still picked it and I get all the content done in the game. ESO I was spec badly but I still got content done pretty easily. If you are not raiding why would it matter what spec you are? Also if you get kicked based on what spec you are in this game then you just need to look at the community and it just shows how bad it is. In SWTOR I enter a dungeon via group finder I don't get kicked for being a marauder we just go on continuing the dungeon. As OP said if you are not raiding it won't matter, when you DF it wont matter you will just continue the dungeon.

So many classes play the same in this game DRG is almost like MNK with Greased Lightning, MCH is just BRD Gauss Barrel/Wander's Minuet, Tanks are the same but 2 of them do bit more dps than the other, healers are all the same. The only job in this game which I will say is different is NIN. Honestly if they won't make trees at least make more interesting traits because the current ones are just lackluster and most are just copy and pasted over onto other classes. It's a cheap way of doing balancing because they just make everyone the same and too be honest its boring. This is the only big game to my knowledge which has no customization which sucks in my opinion. When i see people relate it to people not being taken its always FFXI any other game I have rarely seen this happen except in raid environment.

[Gilthas]

As OP said if you are not raiding it won't matter, when you DF it wont matter you will just continue the dungeon.

Let me repost this:

Having unbalanced jobs is bad for everyone. It's bad for the player that likes the job because he gets shunned from most parties, and it's bad for those who don't play the job, because they get stuck with an underperforming job in duties.

The argument that all jobs play the same is also pretty much a fallacy. Even if you're of the opinion that the current jobs in each role play the same (I disagree) adding specs won't change that, it'll just add more jobs that play the same.

[Reynhart]

Let me repost this:

You can repost it all you want, it's still a lie.
Since "underperforming" is "compared to something else", you could frequently say that one job is "underperforming".

Back in 2.4, MNK and NIN were better single-target DPS than DRG, so, in a way, every DRG was "underperforming". SMN and BRD were lesser ranged DPS than BLM, so they were still "underperforming".
Back in 2.0, WAR was a lot more weaker than PLD. So, he was "underperforming"...but to the point where clearing content was significantly harder as a WAR. That was a balance problem.

Now, DRG is a better single target DPS than MNK or NIN, etc...

People will still play the job they like, because it's fun, no matter how they perform, as long as they can clear the content. You obviously exagerate my idea by supposing one spec performing waaaay better than the other.

Sorry but your wording was bad, I read it wrong. You are aware that there already is a certain degree of customisation in place, e.g. a Scholar who focuses on healing will want to prioritise Crit, a Scholar who focuses on DPS prioritises Det and Accuracy

Actually, yes, there is a certain degree of customisation...and it's pretty much only tied to Arcanist. If SCH can focus much on DPS, it's because its class is a DPS one so it has a fair DPS potential.
I really think job branching is an interesting concept, and adding that to other classes would be a first step on customization.

[Delily]

It's not a fallacy because every time a game has customizations, the vast majority of players go with the optimal build. There are years of data that proves this. The other not to do this is that adds the yak shaving of spec balancing. The devs spend time right now balancing skills between jobs, and now you want them to do the same between specs.

[StouterTaru]

Until a fisher clears A4 Savage the jobs are unbalanced and therefore customization can't exist.