Why refusing customization is a fallacy

[MageBlack]

So, let me get this straight just to make sure I'm not misrepresenting the idea put forth. What people want is not just a few more skills to allow branching out but whole different specs that would effectivly change a PLD's blue tank symbol into a red DPS symbol. just for the sake of simplifying the argument. Would that be a correct simplification of the desires in this thread? If not. please give me the TL;DR.

[Reynhart]

My initial idea is different specs so that not every iteration of the same job will be 100% the same.
For example, a PLD spec who trades mitigation for a better offense, for people who prefer off-tanking, or a spec that improves your healing potency, etc...yet the three spec would still be tank specs.

The existence of jobs and classes point in the direction where they considered different roles between the class and one of its job, but, apparently, SCH is a "proof" that it doesn't work well, even though SMN and SCH are very efficient.

[MageBlack]

My initial idea is different specs so that not every iteration of the same job will be 100% the same.
For example, a PLD spec who trades mitigation for a better offense, for people who prefer off-tanking, or a spec that improves your healing potency, etc...yet the three spec would still be tank specs.

The existence of jobs and classes point in the direction where they considered different roles between the class and one of its job, but, apparently, SCH is a "proof" that it doesn't work well, even though SMN and SCH are very efficient.

Then its happening. Just not as fast as you would probably like. With the first expansion alone we can see it beginning, best example I can give is the WAR. Before the expansion I could tank, and that was a bout it. I could take off defiance to do a little bit more damage with my "DPS" rotation but ultimately all i could do is tank. But now with the new "stance" (i keep forgetting what its called) I can output some serious damage, perhaps even outdoing the MCH .

This is about the best we can realistically expect going forward. more skills added to our current list that can help us offshoot in a different direction than the standard vision for the class. The devs have already admitted they want more variety in the skills, item stats, etc. The game is 5 years old with the first few years being a sort of working beta. They played it safe with the remake of 2.0 and by the time it was released they had already begun production of 3.0. without a crystal ball to know how popular it would become they continued the path of least resistance, and that's fine.

The nice thing is how unexpectedly popular the game was is it happened much quicker than expected. They anticipated needing at least a year to regain player trust and get players interested, so all their development plans were based around these expected numbers. blowing those numbers out of the water has created many challenges for them, at least as I can see it. Things like the housing situation (my personal beef) with an underwhelming amount of plots. I'm sure they thought, for their projected numbers when they began creating the content, that the plots they put in would be enough so some on the fly adjustments needed to be made and some emergency additions were put in place to help get through the rough patch. It was also evident in the server congestion at 2.0 launch, over crowded servers, etc. When your last attempt failed so miserably (1.0) it would be absolutely foolish to take a second run at it at full bore. Rather than trying to shatter records, they were hoping for at least a make the qualifiers

Like any other company, they have a budget to work within, a time frame to do it, and limited manpower to make it a reality. When they are committed to their course and things change as drastically as it did, what would have worked well under the previous game-plan is now falling short. Just thinking about the projection of needing about a year to get numbers to even match FFXI at its peak and 2.0 being a remake of the original content and story that was intended, only now is Yoshi-P working with what he would have envisioned for the initial launch of FFXIV if he had the reigns the whole time.

Were you present when the removal of the elemental wheel was explained? That got a lot of heat from people, and if they removed the elemental wheel, what on earth would make you think they will add in something as complex as skill trees. Also look at the reasoning he used for not being able to dye AF gear as well as no cross class glamors. He wanted people to be able to look at the class and know what to expect.

I would expect that by 4.0 we will see more of this customization and complexity that people seek. Developing a game like this does not happen over night and to implement the extent of what I've seen discussed here it would take years of reballancing pretty much the whole game. Let them do it in stages and at their pace. You need to stop foaming at the mouth over this, it helps nothing and gets you no where...

[Reynhart]

Then its happening. Just not as fast as you would probably like. With the first expansion alone we can see it beginning, best example I can give is the WAR. Before the expansion I could tank, and that was a bout it. I could take off defiance to do a little bit more damage with my "DPS" rotation but ultimately all i could do is tank. But now with the new "stance" (i keep forgetting what its called) I can output some serious damage, perhaps even outdoing the MCH .

That's not the same...because every WAR will still be the same.
It's not like you had to really "chose" if you want to specialize as a "Defiance" WAR or a "Deliverance" WAR. You're both, and every WAR is both.

The nice thing is how unexpectedly popular the game was is it happened much quicker than expected. [...]When your last attempt failed so miserably (1.0) it would be absolutely foolish to take a second run at it at full bore. Rather than trying to shatter records, they were hoping for at least a make the qualifiers

Don't get me wrong, I totally understand why they made FFXIV like this, and I love what the game has become (Mind you, I also think than 1.0 had several interesting ideas, but, eh, too bad)
Problem is, people put less and less time in game these days. Everybody wants everything NOW. And if you give them exatcly that, you pretty much can't go backwards, because the backlash would be even stronger.

For example, FFXI was atrocious with its quests. FFXIV offers you anything you need to know. So, they made just a little few quests where you really have to think and search (Like the broom quests).
First reaction ? "What are these bulls**t quests ?!"...sad

Were you present when the removal of the elemental wheel was explained?

Yes, I was, and I still thinks it's the same fallacy as the lack of customization. Back in 2.0, the strat for Ifrit Hard was to use caster LB to destroy all the nails before Hellfire. So, even if Ifrit took reduced damage from Fire or Ifrit-egi, you'd still took at least a SMN or a BLM in your party. And that also wouldn't have been a problem for BLM, hadn't they decide that the only "damaging" spells would be the Fire line.

[Reynhart]

I want customization but I don't think it should come in jobs, only classes.

Classes are a nice starting point, yes. Problem is, without any new skill, they'd be way too weak to particpate in any content at 60.

Jobs are designed to fill one role, when they start filling others, all jobs start to feel very similar.

I'm not so sure of that. We already have several playing the same role very differently, it's not impossible for them to play another role in their own way.

But, you'd have to decide the base core of the classe regardless of its role. Basically, Arcanist (Still him ) is a pet class. That's his core. Therefore, if you make a pet tank, a pet DPS of a pet healer, Arcanist will still be the only (for now) pet class.

When the "Gun" job was annouced, several people thought about Chemist. If Machnist had a spec where it could use healing bullets with the same kind of procs between each other, it would still a unique gameplay.

[Sandpark]

Classes are a nice starting point, yes.

Problem is, without any new skill, they'd be way too weak to particpate in any content at 60.

Well that would be on SE shoulder's if they did pursue that, not ours. What is the point of customization, if there is no content that supports that? You know what I mean?

[MageBlack]

That's not the same...because every WAR will still be the same.
It's not like you had to really "chose" if you want to specialize as a "Defiance" WAR or a "Deliverance" WAR. You're both, and every WAR is both.

I know its not the same as what you are asking for, I thought I said that. This is the best we will get is the expansion of what we have. They were clearly not happy with the ACN/SMN/SCH and how that branched so they wont be continuing that route. There was an interview with Yoshi-P a while back where he stated he saw problems with the armory system and wanted to make some major adjustments. so changes are in the works and being considered and I'm sure the input is welcome.

Don't get me wrong, I totally understand why they made FFXIV like this, and I love what the game has become (Mind you, I also think than 1.0 had several interesting ideas, but, eh, too bad)

For example, FFXI was atrocious with its quests. FFXIV offers you anything you need to know. So, they made just a little few quests where you really have to think and search (Like the broom quests).
First reaction ? "What are these bulls**t quests ?!"...sad

I think the two of us could have a great conversation about this. I was there the whole 1.0 as well and at the time of the players polls, I didnt feel it was worth saving or continuing the course so I voted for the overhaul option. BUT. After that, as it grew and changed and the lag got betterish, jobs were added, special skills could be purchased, etc. I was really starting to like it. I think a mixture of 1.0 2.0 and FFXI would be phenomenal.

And don't get me wrong, I like the complexity in games, the elemental wheel, branching choices for customization, more complex skills, better gear stats, etc. I was disappointed when some of that stuff was removed but I'm enjoying the game for what it is. In the end its a game, one of millions available at my fingertips. It's not like when i was younger and you didnt know a game existed until you saw it on the shelf at a store or if you were lucky, in a nintendo power magazine and you only had maybe a handful of new games to choose from in any given year. I think players are getting altogether too entitled about their opinions in todays world but thats a completely separate conversation.

Problem is, people put less and less time in game these days. Everybody wants everything NOW. And if you give them exatcly that, you pretty much can't go backwards, because the backlash would be even stronger.

This is a big sticking point with me. Ok, I will give you that there might be some people that are like that, but they are of the same percentage as the elitist that nothing is ever hard enough for them. In both cases those groups arent the ones catered to, nor should they be. The largest player pools that this game is targeted for and reaching are players that have never played an MMO before (which will be lots of console users cause look at how many MMO's consoles have) and casuals, like myself. The generation of gamers that helped make the medium popular are now older, have full time jobs, extracurricular commitments, and families. It's rather insulting when I hear "filthy Casual" thrown around like its people like me ruining the game because I am the casual that is targeted. I love games, play as often as I am able, but I dont have the time commitment to sit down for 6hours a day to feel like I made some kind of progression (I'm looking at you Yhoter Jungle!!!!) I want to be able to hop in, Run a daily or two and feel I actually did something.

I also do want to see the tough challenging complex content there too for the times I am able to play longer and want that challenge and stuff that satisfies the craving people like yourself have for challenge. Maybe I just have a different lens than you when I look at the game, maybe I'm just more willing to take a sacrifice in a few areas of the game for the sake of others less skilled than myself to get into a game like this that might not have otherwise. It's how the medium will grow. When I want the chew-my-controller- frustrating challenge, I'll pick up Dark Souls, when i want strategic calculated combat, I'll pick up FF Tactics. When I want to zone out to something while I take a crap, I'll play angry birds. Last I checked, I didnt need a single game to fullfill all my content cravings.

Yes, I was, and I still thinks it's the same fallacy as the lack of customization. Back in 2.0, the strat for Ifrit Hard was to use caster LB to destroy all the nails before Hellfire. So, even if Ifrit took reduced damage from Fire or Ifrit-egi, you'd still took at least a SMN or a BLM in your party. And that also wouldn't have been a problem for BLM, hadn't they decide that the only "damaging" spells would be the Fire line.

I think my only problem is the strong language you and many other posters like to use, as if to drive home the exaggerated importance and urgency of the changes you would like to see. That in itself is a fallacy. Could they have kept all that stuff and built on it? Probably. would the game then be more successful as a result? If people are having issues with some of the earlier content, like AV with the games current setup, they would not have stuck with it. but look at how the game has changed from 2.0 to now. even levelling from 1-50 had a steady growth and complexity in its own right. 3.0 built on that however small it might be. If they keep the trend of MSQ requirements for unlocking expansions, then that allows for complexity growth as a requirement to access future content. Steps of Faith was a great check to see if you can handle content in the expansion. You cant beat that, you wont last in 3.0. I also see potential with the new Alex Story mode, its an easier way to seperate casual content from hardcore content, that way they dont need to always cater to the lowest denominator.

Anywa, I'm terribly sorry for the rant. Been seeing this post come up a lot in the forums nd arguments get more and more heated about some silly technicalities and, like the nosy bugger i am, felt I should put in my 2 gil.

Sorry for the rant and thank you for listening.

[Reynhart]

They were clearly not happy with the ACN/SMN/SCH and how that branched so they wont be continuing that route.

Like I said, I don't understand why they weren't. SCH and SMN can both be adjusted without touching the other job, either through their pet of their unique skills. And we all foresee that the number of job skills would become a bigger part of your kit than your class skills eventually. As for the bonus points, it's not that big of a problem, or if they think it is, I don't think it'd be that difficult to tie them to jobs and not classes. Problem solved.

There was an interview with Yoshi-P a while back where he stated he saw problems with the armory system and wanted to make some major adjustments. so changes are in the works and being considered and I'm sure the input is welcome.

I hope so. But if they put it in 4.0, people will have a really hard time adapting since they'd be used to the gameplay for several years.

I think the two of us could have a great conversation about this.

I started around 1.18, so I know a lot of flaws were already fixed. Before that, it was probably too big of a mess to be worth saving.

Ok, I will give you that there might be some people that are like that, but they are of the same percentage as the elitist that nothing is ever hard enough for them.

I don't know if the percentage is that close, but it doesn't really matter...the elitists are given what they want for.
Alex Savage is a big WTF for people who think that this game can be cleared in a breeze
Without the unsync, I'm sure Final Coil would still be a really tough gate, even with the Echo.

And, I suppose those elitist would love to have more theoerycrafting and freedom, because they are the one creating the meta.
"DRK sucks !
- You know, that famous Free Company cleared that with a DRK ?
- Really ? Ok, then DRK is awesome !"

And, having multiple specs doesn't prevent people from choosing the most basic spec and still be able to perform decently. Since the few last FF all had mechanics where the game plays for you, maybe they could implement something that chose traits for you

It's rather insulting when I hear "filthy Casual" thrown around like its people like me ruining the game because I am the casual that is targeted.

The problem with "casuals" is that most people think "casual" equals "bad player" and "hardcore" equals "good", which is a...ok, I'll stop using that word...which is just plain wrong. Even Alex Savage is catered for "casual" as in you don't need to play... for 6hours a day to feel like I made some kind of progression...

Maybe I just have a different lens than you when I look at the game, maybe I'm just more willing to take a sacrifice in a few areas of the game for the sake of others less skilled than myself to get into a game like this that might not have otherwise.

I am willing to make sacrifices if that means more people can enjoy the game. But if there's a solution to please more people, why overlooking it ?

I think my only problem is the strong language you and many other posters like to use, as if to drive home the exaggerated importance and urgency of the changes you would like to see.

I tend to avoid using strong language as long as people don't start replying like "I don't know how your idea would work so you're stupid to even think it can work". Especially when a game is as young as XIV.

Steps of Faith was a great check to see if you can handle content in the expansion.

Steps of Faith is an utter disappointment...don't get me wrong, I loved the concept, the strategy you needed to clear it. But, yes, people couldn't beat that. And instead of staying true to "You can't beat that, you wont last in 3.0", they nerfed it so bad that you can basically ignore every mechanic and still win. What they should have done with Steps is removing it from the Trial roulette and put it in the Main Scenario roulette. This way, people could still do the Trial for a quick and easy tomestone reward and wouldn't leave en masse whenever Steps of Faith popped. (Which is still a reality, even after the nerf...)

With the system built the way it is, "customization" can only come through the addition of unique items with unique powers and stat bonuses.

I made a reference to that :

I've seen more and more posts, in every section, debatting over skill trees, multiple specs, uniques stats on certains items, etc..

And Yoshi-P answered the same way "We fear these items would become mandatory". Again, out of the really hard engame content, anything can be clear efficiently with whatever setup you have and whatever gear (Apart from obviously bad choice of gear, of course).

[Bovinity]

I dunno, "customization" in MMOs always seems to just suck up a ton of balance and development time for little more than an illusion of "being your own character" or something.

I'd rather just see the time and balancing effort put into content, not into some "talent trees" or something that 99% of people will just copy from a guide somewhere.

[Xerius]

Let's be honest, you don't want customization you want optimization. Customization implies opportunity cost, meaning that if you pick one perk there's an equally good perk that you are now disqualified from. The scenario that I've just stated never happens in a customization system because everyone just picks the perks that best benefit their job because it's too difficult to balance every choice to be equal especially in a game like FFXIV where there are very few stat choices that you have to make.