Giving each job a second spec: would it work?

[MatthiasS]

Nope. If they don't like it, they're under no obligation to do it no matter how many players want it.

In the sense no one is required to do anything, perhaps.

In the sense of "We have many gaming options to spend our dollar on", I would say once something reaches a critical mass of player support, then it becomes financially smart to implement the feature before a competitor does.

[Dhex]

I love the "Arcanist split spec. didn't work!" argument when almost every Savage Alexander group has a SCH - and SMN is widely considered the best DPS in the game atm.

[justinjarjar]

I love the "Arcanist split spec. didn't work!" argument when almost every Savage Alexander group has a SCH - and SMN is widely considered the best DPS in the game atm.

Devs didn't like the design and don't want to go that direction, is that good enough?
(not blaming op for bringing it up, just that there is a reason it most likely won't happen)

[Dhex]

Devs didn't like the design and don't want to go that direction, is that good enough?
(not blaming op for bringing it up, just that there is a reason it most likely won't happen)

Sorry but it seems to me the argument behind this changes any time it's brought up.

First it's "Arcanist was a failed experiment" except that the Jobs stemming from Arcanist are both very successful and exemplary in their roles.
Then the argument becomes "Well Devs don't like it" because it's extra work for them to balance stuff? Isn't that what they have to do any time the release anything new? Are all the jobs really on equal footing because last I checked there is still an optimum party setup...

So basically your argument is "We can't have this thing that you're asking for because I say it takes Devs time and effort to make that." To which I would respond - well duh. Anything we ask for takes time and effort to make - be it a minion, or cash shop mount, or anything else.

[justinjarjar]

Sorry but it seems to me the argument behind this changes any time it's brought up.

First it's "Arcanist was a failed experiment" except that the Jobs stemming from Arcanist are both very successful and exemplary in their roles.
Then the argument becomes "Well Devs don't like it" because it's extra work for them to balance stuff? Isn't that what they have to do any time the release anything new? Are all the jobs really on equal footing because last I checked there is still an optimum party setup...

So basically your argument is "We can't have this thing that your asking for because it takes Devs time and effort to make that." To which I would respond - well duh. Anything we ask for takes time and effort to make - be it a minion, or cash shop mount, or anything else.

no the devs are on record saying they did not like that direction. Completely different.

[Dhex]

no the devs are on record saying they did not like that direction. Completely different.

So if Devs decide they don't like something - even if players request more of it because it's successful from a functional and practical use standpoint (SCH/SMN) - they shouldn't consider it?

[Delily]

I love the "Arcanist split spec. didn't work!" argument when almost every Savage Alexander group has a SCH - and SMN is widely considered the best DPS in the game atm.

This demonstrates ignorance of the issue. The reason the designers don't like the split is because anytime the class's skills are modified, it will impact both jobs, which occupy 2 different roles. If they boost the potency of a DoT or of Ruin, suddenly SCH becomes the preferred healer because they are strong healers and now they're doing more damage. In effect, the sch hampers the ability of the team to balance the smn with other damage roles.

[Saggo]

This demonstrates ignorance of the issue. The reason the designers don't like the split is because anytime the class's skills are modified, it will impact both jobs, which occupy 2 different roles. If they boost the potency of a DoT or of Ruin, suddenly SCH becomes the preferred healer because they are strong healers and now they're doing more damage. In effect, the sch hampers the ability of the team to balance the smn with other damage roles.

I can buy that it doesn't fit in the vision SE has for FFXIV. They tried it, it didn't fit, they moved on. I don't have to agree, I could wish they explored it more, since SMN and SCH quite simply work, but it's their vision.

What I don't buy is everyone (not necessarily you specifically, just in general) saying it's a failure, or it's too hard, or it's a terrible choice. All of those apocalyptic descriptions.

Numbers is simply what programmers do. I know, I'm one of them. All you have to do is look at Wanderer's Minuet and Empyreal Arrow/Sidewinder to see that. They upped WM and reduced the potency of EA and SW so that even though EA/SW do less damage during WM post-patch, BRD DPS went up overall. They get the numbers, and that's ignoring problem-solving techniques like applying a SMN-specific tweak before tweaking Ruin, to use your example.

Balancing a variable (Ruin, Wanderer's) is not so difficult that it causes undue hardship to developers. It simply doesn't. At the end of the day, they abandoned dual-jobs/specs out of direction and vision, not difficulty.

[Delily]

I can buy that it doesn't fit in the vision SE has for FFXIV. They tried it, it didn't fit, they moved on. I don't have to agree, I could wish they explored it more, since SMN and SCH quite simply work, but it's their vision.

What I don't buy is everyone (not necessarily you specifically, just in general) saying it's a failure, or it's too hard, or it's a terrible choice. All of those apocalyptic descriptions.

Numbers is simply what programmers do. I know, I'm one of them. All you have to do is look at Wanderer's Minuet and Empyreal Arrow/Sidewinder to see that. They upped WM and reduced the potency of EA and SW so that even though EA/SW do less damage during WM post-patch, BRD DPS went up overall. They get the numbers, and that's ignoring problem-solving techniques like applying a SMN-specific tweak before tweaking Ruin, to use your example.

Balancing a variable (Ruin, Wanderer's) is not so difficult that it causes undue hardship to developers. It simply doesn't. At the end of the day, they abandoned dual-jobs/specs out of direction and vision, not difficulty.

You're right. There is very little in the mechanics of FFXIV that are computationally challenging, it's intentionally simple. The issue is how the playerbase will react. As soon as people determine a given job is the best one, overwhelmingly, people will flock to it.

[Lemuel81]

I would rather see a job/subjob like FFXI but nothing like a talent tree like World of warcraft. If they ever did add say a talent tree like..world of warcraft. There probably would end up just being a cookie cutter build that everyone will follow or be demanded up (raid statics) so pretty pointless imo.