Job Personalization: Can I Have It?

[Adventica6]

You people gotta stop comparing ff to wow, they aren't the same, at all.

[zcrash970]

You people gotta stop comparing ff to wow, they aren't the same, at all.

SHHHHHHHHH!
You will ruin their little conversation. It is very entertaining.

[Bishop81]

Thank you. Now those are legitimate ideas. I don't agree with them, but at least it's more than other people here just saying "we don't have personalization, give us more!" No you may not be paid to design for SE, but having had to make amateur stuff before I can say it doesn't help at all for people to tell you "you need x" without giving you an example of why or how x could be done or used. Devs aren't magicians that can read our minds.

So I'll say it again: thank you. I mean that sincerely.

That was a pain to write though. /sigh

In what way do you disagree? It doesn't affect raiding and is really just an addition to existing activities.

You people gotta stop comparing ff to wow, they aren't the same, at all.

YoshiP was the one that brought WoW into the conversation ...

[DreadRabbit]

That was a pain to write though. /sigh

In what way do you disagree? It doesn't affect raiding and is really just an addition to existing activities.

Definitely appreciate you taking the time do so, though *thumbs up* Truthfully in theory your ideas sound good. But as it was already pointed out, anyone who wants to main the 3 new jobs are completely left out because they have no base class. And they could just swap to one of the different classes to do the content, but then that clashes with your idea of people being able to play how they want to play. I feel if we're going to add new customization for the game it needs to include all of the classes/jobs somehow. The new jobs are already getting a lot of flak. I wouldn't want to gimp them even further.

wasn't in WoW. Paladin could spec as healer. Druid could spec has tank, healer, melee, or caster. And just about every healer had a dps spec. It goes on.

Fair enough, but again how is that any different from what we have now is the only thing I continue to wonder (other than you remained "druid" as an example). That works for games like WoW because it's one class to one character and offers variety for those who don't want to level a brand new character. We don't have that issue in this game so it would be redundant. That's why this thread is so confusing for me: "we have no personalization" yet people are asking for literally the exact same system (as least as far as specs are concerned). The only difference being you don't want to step out of your one class' name. And specs don't let you change roles in the very middle of battle like we can now by using cross class abilities (or even more than just 4 abilities in our native tool kit).

Now I know we're moving away from cross class abilities, and how far we get in that direction depends entirely on how they handle fixing the problems with the three new jobs.

[Bishop81]

Definitely appreciate you taking the time do so, though *thumbs up* Truthfully in theory your ideas sound good. But as it was already pointed out, anyone who wants to main the 3 new jobs are completely left out because they have no base class. And they could just swap to one of the different classes to do the content, but then that clashes with your idea of people being able to play how they want to play. I feel if we're going to add new customization for the game it needs to include all of the classes/jobs somehow. The new jobs are already getting a lot of flak. I wouldn't want to gimp them even further.

The alternative is to just forget about Classes. Extend the number of cross-class skills Jobs can take and let the "skill book" acquired skills be unusable in raids. This may or may not require some additional programming though and is one more thing that the game needs to check before letting a skill go off.

Or ...

They could tied DRK to MRD, ASH to CNJ and MSH to a new gun wielding Class[1] locking out/changing specific Class skills when you switch to Job - there is already precedence for this with ACN; you can't summon Carbuncles anymore as Summon/Summon II change in functionality, in addition to certain skills becoming worthless, e.g. Physick.

[1] There is already a desk at the Coral Tower with a gun icon.

[DreadRabbit]

snip

Well SE is already attempting to do the former in regards to forgetting about classes. The problem is I don't think they anticipated the 3 new jobs being as poorly received as they have been so they're scrambling to improve them. Unless they change how those work offering more cross class abilities for them won't do much good because they're already built to be a "hybrid" of the two other jobs that share their roles (or Machinist's case the...one other job x--x ).

And I think that attempt to hybridize them is what made this seem like all classes were losing their individuality. Before they came there wasn't really that much of a complaint as all of the classes/jobs actually played pretty differently from one another. And most of them haven't changed in that respect, I just think people are blowing those changes out of proportion. Again, except the three new jobs. They feel too samey. So it feels like we didn't get anything new gameplay wise. Which is why I think we're not really going to be able to get a handle on how to "fix" this issue until they figure out how to balance the new jobs while giving them a unique identity (aka make the mechanics behind them that were supposed to make them unique actually useful. That seems to be the biggest complaint on that front from what I've been reading).

But the idea of skill books in general sort of like recipe books for the crafters, that might potentially be possible since we already have a similar system. As much as I like cross class abilities I'm willing to admit it's clear they're trying to move away from the system. So rather than being "cross-class" abilities I guess it would be more semblance of an optional PvE skill set you could hunt for whatever lore reason. Like "Oh look! BLMs could heal after studying the CNJs'. We can do something similar with the dark powers of the void" or however you'd go about it.

Or like was suggested earlier in the thread: give people the ability to aesthetically change how their skills appear.

which would add considerable workload to the dev team who are already busy bringing samurai and blue mage to the game.

And this I want the devs to get back into adding really unique jobs. Blue Mage in particular could have a lot of what people here are asking for.

[Bishop81]

But the idea of skill books in general sort of like recipe books for the crafters, that might potentially be possible since we already have a similar system. As much as I like cross class abilities I'm willing to admit it's clear they're trying to move away from the system. So rather than being "cross-class" abilities I guess it would be more semblance of an optional PvE skill set you could hunt for whatever lore reason. Like "Oh look! BLMs could heal after studying the CNJs'. We can do something similar with the dark powers of the void" or however you'd go about it.

Pretty much what I was getting at with the first alternative.

" Extend the number of cross-class skills Jobs can take and let the "skill book" acquired skills be unusable in raids. "

Currently we are limited to like 5 skill slots and we can barely fill them. Extend them to the full 10 - or however many; I never actually counted.

Skills from Skill Books can be or not be limited to specific Classes/Jobs. e.g. A "last stand"-like ability that heals you to full at the cost of 50% of your remain MP and TP can be made available to all Jobs. A dash attack should probably be limited to melee Jobs since casters will want to stay at range. ...

Or like was suggested earlier in the thread: give people the ability to aesthetically change how their skills appear.

That would be boring ... no gameplay at all. -_-

[DreadRabbit]

Pretty much what I was getting at with the first alternative.

Okay, now I better understand where you were coming from.

That would be boring ... no gameplay at all. -_-

Well, this whole thread is about personalization and making it so that all players enjoy their classes. And for a vast many they just want a simple change. Just like how not everybody raids, not everyone really wants the gameplay of their class to change (look at the Bards), but would rather be able to somehow make the class their own in other ways.

Just shows that no matter what idea is offered up you're not going to make everyone happy. A lot of people play FF14 to get away from how traditional MMOs handle classes and specs and skill trees. It's one of the few out there that doesn't adhere to that system and it's refreshing. Yet here we are, people who want that (not saying you do, just using this thread as an example) placed here too. They're not wrong for wanting those systems as they enjoyed them, but that's why there's so many people that flat out oppose the idea.

And more what I was trying to get across to you too earlier. There's not going to be a "you don't have to do content you don't want to do" or "no one has to feel left out." Someone is always going to be left out or get the short end of the stick because ideas are imperfect.

I don't think our Job's combat system needs to change because it's fun as it is to me. We just need more unique jobs and possibly add the support role alongside tank, healer, dps. If i want to change how I play I just switch to another class. But clearly other people don't like that hence why this thread exists. The game has 4 million accounts with the combat as it currently is. They did something right in the eyes of those who joined and stayed.

[Saggo]

Fair enough, but again how is that any different from what we have now is the only thing I continue to wonder (other than you remained "druid" as an example).

Well I already touched on why it's similar but not the same, but again, look at ACN on one way a spec system could be done while existing within the armory system. It is essentially living proof that that they're not strictly the same. And again, leveling another job, even on the same character, is an amazing feature but not so simple a task (especially with the boost to 60).

I'm under no illusions, still doesn't mean it couldn't work. They already succeeded once with ACN (and some growing pains), I'm just sad to see them so readily abandon the idea.

And specs don't let you change roles in the very middle of battle like we can now by using cross class abilities (or even more than just 4 abilities in our native tool kit).

Cross class skills were never that flexible in 2.0, except for the odd DPS MRD or Tanking LNC. Definitely not with jobs.

[DreadRabbit]

snip

...Fate mechanics are too forgiving...but you hate how unforgiving raids are? o_O You're literally describing raids and how raiding works in WoW: you change your spec/skill tree and what gear you wear to match the fight you're about to go into. Yet you despise WoW and don't want FF14 to be a WoW clone.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of raiding either but it has nothing to do with the fights themselves, for me it's more the stress people seem to want to bring to it.

Editing here because I've reached my post limit for the day:

I never said I was against difficulty.

My suggestions of non-"punish the whole group for the failings of a few" group content (instead just punish the player that screwed up) is meant to reduce toxicity, it was never meant to be easy. (and yes I read your edit, Bishop)

So we're back to square one with this particular conversation in this thread: this is a community problem. You also don't deny that you're advocating for a WoW-like progression system, claiming FF14 doesn't already have it, after having ranted that FF14 is too much like WoW and getting more and more like it. (And I have to disagree with the Bloodborne thing. That's a matter of personal preference, that's not a fact. For me an RPG is about playing through a storyline, since every game genre has the armor and skill customization you're talking about. But that's also my opinion, it's not a fact).

It was good talking to you, Bishop. It honestly was because I feel we hit upon some good ideas. But I think we're at that point where if you and I personally continue this part of the chat we're just going to continue running in circles.

Cross class skills were never that flexible in 2.0, except for the odd DPS MRD or Tanking LNC. Definitely not with jobs.

And that's where I disagree. I've had multiple experiences where cross class skills have enabled me to step outside my typical role in the middle of the fight. Now I'll admit not every class might have that flexibility and that is an issue that needs to be addressed.

And with that I peace out of this thread. Good luck all.