Job Personalization: Can I Have It?

[DreadRabbit]

snip

I did read your linked post, and you're literally offering nothing new to the table with that idea. We already have cross-class skills you can't equip when you change to a job, but you can use as a class without a soul stone should you decide to go for utility over specialization. Look at that: you have a choice! And there's people on this forum who even forego the soul stone so they can use more skills for said utility and they can get through content just fine.

And outside of raids (which is content we've both said we won't do) those cross-class skills are 100% optional. No one's forcing you to use them. They weren't designed for your class. But there's a choice to customize your character's rotation with them.

I constantly see people either ignore or flat out refuse to use cross-class skills because "I'm a mage, I shouldn't use archer skills" or whatever. Fine, that's your choice. But if you're going to turn right around and complain that you have no customization available to you then you're ignoring what the game already offers just because it doesn't neatly fit into your labels, then you only have yourself to blame.

Now the rest of this wall of text isn't directed at you since I know you're in favor of cross-class skills. This is more towards people who want skill trees, specs, or just control over attributes.

I can only speak for BLM since that's the class who's level I have highest, but I have a ton of options to personalize my rotation and still be effective. Which is why I actually get a little offended that even other BLMs say we only have fire and ice. If you're only using fire and ice then you're the one pigeon-holing yourself.

Raging and Quelling Strikes aren't required skills by what I see in DF. As only one other BLM I've ran into in DF actually used either one. Raging especially you don't have to use now that we've got Enochian. But I can choose to still have that skill on my hotbar because whenever Enochian's down, I can pop Raging instead depending on the stance I'm in whenever Enochian is gone. Some people find that redundant and would rather swap Raging for something else. Quelling strikes in theory isn't required because I've seen most tanks be able to handle BLM enmity magnets without it in place. But if you choose to have it there, it can take some stress off the tank or make up in case your DPS-ing partner isn't attacking the right person (or you on accident aren't, you can pop that to help mitigate the mess that's been made).

I don't have to have Physick/Psycik on my hotbars because my healing ability is utter trash compared to healing roles. But for those that choose to use it, it can actually pull you out of a bind. I can't count how many times I've had to drop my role as DPS, go into Umbral Ice, and start healing because the healer died for whatever reason. Or the healer's taken damage in a boss fight but they can't afford to take attention off the tank. Pop a few heals on them while I'm regenerating MP, they don't even have to waste cooldowns or AoE healing on members that didn't need it. They could keep doing what they're doing.

I don't personally use Virus because I don't know fights as well as others, but I've seen a BLM who did to great effect and it helped the tank. We have skills that teleport us to another player to help get out of the bad. Skills to prevent damage to party mates. Etc. SMNs have even better utility because they can Raise. They certainly don't have to, but it is amazing when they do.

Now in games that do skill trees or specs, I do not have the same flexibility in what I can do in a fight as I can here in this game. In WoW as a Warlock, if my healer dies I can't suddenly help with the healing until someone gets that healer back on their feet. I can't resurrect that healer. My single role is DPS and boy does that game want me to do nothing but DPS even if the situation would be more fun/helpful if I could step out of that box for 10 seconds to aid my party.

That's not even all the skills BLM, one job, has as optional skills that we as a class can use. There's plenty of skills in our own native toolkit that are honestly optional/situational that players flat out refuse to even look at. Then they scream the job is boring. Now other classes/jobs might not have that same flexibility through their cross class skills. And if that's honestly true, then I can see why people feel the need for more customization. But given the vast number of players that ignore over half the skills my own class/job can use, I'm sure others in other roles do the exact same.

Skill trees and such pigeon-hole you into doing one job and one job only. At least in this game with cross class abilities should shit hit the fan, I can switch gears on a dime and help my party until we're on our feet again. Name me a game with skill trees or specs that gives me that same variety and I will gladly shut up.

[LandricFrey]

Exactly. Everyone already forgot about classes. You can get provoke physic and blizzard 2 on your lancer. You want to tank spec lancer? Have at it. Oh you don't want to? Why is that exactly? Because it's not as strong as dragoon and groups would kick you unless they were your personal friends. Yet this is customization and it's already washed out. Sure they could make them stronger. But I'm the end theu won't be equal. One spec or build will be stronger or synergies better with the party and become the standard. It's not better for drgs if they spec lancer tank build to be stronger than a war. It just kills off wars. There is no balance because there is always a winner and a looser. That's the illusion of choice. You can choose the winner or the looser, but never 2 winners.

What's in game now is the pathetic remains of an ill-conceived cross class system. There are good and bad choices. How a good game does class customizing is they have you chose between good and good options. Preferably what matches your playstyle. difficult to do, yes, but if pulled off correctly, oh so worth it.

[Duelle]

How can you claim that there is a negative consequence to something before the developers even try it?

Prior experience and frame of reference. We've seen it happen before, and to expect it to not happen despite evidence to the contrary is foolhardy.

There is already a "best" and the other options are just illusions right? Why bother putting in three gear sets when only one or two pieces are any good?

That's called progression. You use the "lesser" gear until you either got the tokens or was blessed by the RNG to get the "best" piece of gear. Right now you either get your law tome gear until you have enough for esoterics or get lucky with drops in Alexander. You get esoterics gear and use that until you get lucky with drops in Alexander Savage. It's not a stretch of logic like you're trying to present it.

To reiterate what I said earlier, you can have customization, but in the form of aesthetics. Merits that change spell visual effects or give you flavor abilities and things of that sort (because really, what BLM wouldn't want to be able to sprout Black Waltz wings and fly around areas with flight allowed?). Not something that'll change combat, but helps flesh out jobs and their place in-game. This way you get to stand out without leading to adverse effects to game balance.

[DreadRabbit]

Merits that change spell visual effects or give you flavor abilities and things of that sort (because really, what BLM wouldn't want to be able to sprout Black Waltz wings and fly around areas with flight allowed?). Not something that'll change combat, but helps flesh out jobs and their place in-game. This way you get to stand out without leading to adverse effects to game balance.

Now changing visuals of spells we already have sounds awesome to me. Like Fire 3 is still Fire 3 in your hot bar, but when cast it looks like a gust of wind or ice instead. That way those who want to rp or prefer the visuals of other elements could have that but not screw around with combat balance. (I didn't play FFXI so forgive me if I'm grossly misunderstanding this idea).

[Phydeaux]

As of this writing, Final Fantasy XIV is in a rut. Heavensward is a bland rehash or the 2.X series. (Unless you count enabling players to fly over vast, forgettable landscapes, or the addition of three new jobs, which are near duplicates of three older vocations.)

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Izsha]

What's in game now is the pathetic remains of an ill-conceived cross class system. There are good and bad choices. How a good game does class customizing is they have you chose between good and good options. Preferably what matches your playstyle. difficult to do, yes, but if pulled off correctly, oh so worth it.

People have repeatedly said "in games that do it right it's great". Name one. No one can actually name one. I don't dispute the concept is awesome. Some magical game where you can play any way you want and it can be made a viable option sounds great. Where has it been done? There's a laundry list of games that tried and failed to implement such a system. Where's the success story in a cooperative style game?

The idea is lovely. The implementation is the problem. It's never actually been implemented succesfully in a coordinated team game. Just saying "it can work" isn't good enough when it has never worked, though not for want of trying.

If an idea has failed repeatedly over many uears, many games, many companies, then believing in the heart of the cards isn't enough justification to risk it anymore.

[Rafaelhades]

SWTOR tried back when it was sub based and before they streamlined the skill trees. It ended up the same as we've been saying. One spec towered over all the rest when it came to group based play. Even worse, once they retooled the trees to eliminate the overpowered builds, they inadvertently nerfed whole classes. Commando used to be an amazing turret DPS/healer hybrid. They nerfed both trees and no one wanted to raid with a Commando until they forced people into only one tree. Now, Commando is a great AoE healer and decent turret. Scoundrel is another. Due to Rogue classes reliance on stun locks to get their main dmg off, Scrapper Scoundrels were gutted to the point of uselessness. When people began to spec hybrid DoT/HoT specs, they nerfed the healing tree. Now, after the streamlining, Scoundrels are great burst healers and sub par rogues unless specced into Dirty Fighting.

Allowing people to hybridize only opens up a whole can of worms for class balance. Either it's amazing to the point it's the only option or it's sub par to the point no one will bother taking them. You make them all even and you homogenize the game.

[odintius]

I just want more options to develop my character thought materia system would be a good slight alternate method for like trait/ability increase materia, but we got this lame attribute system I don't want a over the top horizontal system, but something other then what we have currently, I <3 swtor method of orange gear were you insert mod/chip ect and it upgrades the gear something similar I wouldn't mind at all.

[Sandpark]

To reiterate what I said earlier, you can have customization, but in the form of Merits that change spell visual effects or give you flavor abilities and things of that sort (because really, what BLM wouldn't want to be able to sprout Black Waltz wings and fly around areas with flight allowed?). Not something that'll change combat, but helps flesh out jobs. This way you get to stand out without leading to adverse effects to game balance.

What you say sounds cool. FFXI already had that in emote quest things. I completely did not care for it. But then again, I am not someone who cares for messing around with glamours or aesthetician.

I would prefer the effects to look cool already and wouldn't want to merit that. I agree with the understanding though. Customization of jobs would lead to balancing problems in tight group content. But there is nothing stopping SE from creating more variation in the open world and in solo low man stuff. There balance doesn't have to be so stiff or vertical if horizontal mambos are available to classes solely. Exactly the failed intent that original team aimed for but missed. Classes are for solo/low man, jobs are for parties.

This game already has group content in spades, the variation of it is the only things people have been complaining about, not the amount.

One job or class change I would like to see changed are how tier 1 ice or fire spells behave. I would like to see them be changed to either auto attack or how other games would do it and have it be constant or instant cast and the damage tuned. And the ability to cast while moving. In dungeons that might upset things as far as making things more kite-able. But in the open world in more open content(in cases where balance is not as big a deal) it would make combat more engaging.

[Sandpark]

We already have cross-class skills you can't equip when you change to a job, but you can use as a class without a soul stone should you decide to go for utility over specialization. Look at that: you have a choice! And there's people on this forum who even forego the soul stone so they can use more skills for said utility and they can get through content just fine.

I actually get a little offended that even other BLMs say we only have fire and ice. If you're only using fire and ice then you're the one pigeon-holing yourself.

Skill trees and such pigeon-hole you into doing one job and one job only. At least in this game with cross class abilities should shit hit the fan, I can switch gears on a dime and help my party until we're on our feet again. Name me a game with skill trees or specs that gives me that same variety and I will gladly shut up.

Yeah we have big choice on classes. But that won't work in duty finder or pre formed parties with strangers because jobs are better at roles than classes are.And that is fine, I like the way jobs are so restricted into a certain role. I was one of the people who said blms are refined to ice and fire, which isn't true if you count side skills like sleep or other things. I was referring to the the bread and butter damage. Just as I dislike a DPS having to resort to one or two weaponskills to deal the most damage in most situations.

I guess the truth I don't like. Is how combat resides with enemy identities. All jobs have some utility, but the enemy I am facing has little bearing on what I do. Sure some might resist stuff, but the same strategy can be used for basically most enemies encountered, if you take away order of AoE dodging types.

Enemy identity is something that would not work in tight based group content though. Because SE cannot make everything in the dungeon utilize and remember each jobs customization and would lead to members getting shunned if they don't fit the bill. But the open world could work in enemy characteristics to create more opportunities for us to cast different damage skills depending on specific situations.