Job Personalization: Can I Have It?

[Bishop81]

The exact same thing is happening in DF by people not wanting to help the team by playing their role properly. To the point where even MSQ dungeons can't be cleared because of "I'll play how I want to play". Jerks exist at all levels, not just raids.

Not quite my point ...

My point instead was, group content where everyone has to be an obedient little sheep and do it a specific way or everyone will suffer, isn't the only type of group content.

What does adding a spec to a class you already play really change in terms of customization other than control of numbers? The specs in WoW and other games really don't change how a class plays at a basic level. "I want an ice BLM or a thunder BLM" (for example). Okay...the ice spells would probably still induce slow and heavy and given the trend thunder spells would still be dots. So if you specialized in say thunder, you'd be specializing in dots. Oh wait, SMN already specializes in dots, so that spec is more "samey" to another job than BLM as it is now.

That's more what I'm getting at. What radical spec choices would you implement for classes that would keep their core gameplay but would actually be worth the time to insert the change?

It's not about adding "specs", it's about letting you pick and choose what abilities you want.

For example, if you don't like a mechanic say ... Enochian ... perhaps you can use some other alternative mechanic instead and reach roughly the same result. Perhaps said alternative mechanic has lower damage but has a crowd control component so the mob dies before you do all the same.

Such alternative mechanics will never exist so long as the game is designed around raiding. All mechanics will have to be tightly balanced and SE doesn't have time to balance so many things.

If tight balance isn't an issue ... the sky is the limit really.

They can implement cool new ability for Class A without worrying if that would make said class OPed and resulting in a sea of tears from raiders.

All the banality of the game is due to need to keep things ultra-balanced (thus boring).

Which brings me to my earlier post,

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post3217176

[DreadRabbit]

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Doesn't matter if that first bit wasn't your point. It's the exact same mentality just on the other side of the coin. "You will all have to change your play style and adapt to me just because I don't want to play my role the way it was designed." How is that any different from expecting people to play the way your raid group wants you to? You become the person trying to herd sheep with that mentality. The only way to truly avoid that drama is to do group content with friends only. Speaking of...

Raiding's not for everybody. I know I don't raid because I don't like how strict it is. But MMOs, like it or not, need raiders to drive game development. They can't sustain a game by themselves, but they're the ones who complete content quickly and challenge the devs to make quality content faster. Games without raiding stagnate due to slow, if any, updates. Games that focus too much on raiding exclude too many people.

As for the actions thing, what good does adding another crowd control ability to a BLM toolkit where every other spell/attribute is already an AoE or assists in AoE? That's no different than adding a redundant spec. Every single skill that gets added needs to have a purpose and shouldn't be there just because someone wants choice. And we already have this with cross class skills. You can literally take off our soul stone and cross class just about any skill from any of the other classes to use. Play other classes and look at what skills can cross with yours to give a unique style. People are already doing it with their own groups and are having a good time.

"Implementing that cool new ability for Class A without worrying if that would make said class OPed" is called balancing. You're literally using what you claim to be the cause of this game being boring as your argument for why more skills could be added. And again, you're not suggesting anything new. We've got new skills, and people are chosing whether or not they wish to use them. Raiders will, obviously. But plenty of people are rebelling and aren't. That's their personal choice. Party with people that agree with those choices because there's plenty there.

[Bishop81]

Doesn't matter if that first bit wasn't your point. It's the exact same mentality just on the other side of the coin. "You will all have to change your play style and adapt to me just because I don't want to play my role the way it was designed." How is that any different from expecting people to play the way your raid group wants you to? You become the person trying to herd sheep with that mentality. The only way to truly avoid that drama is to do group content with friends only. Speaking of...

You didn't read the linked post did you.

I'm more than happy to let raiders raids (and tear into each other mercilessly).

Raiding's not for everybody. I know I don't raid because I don't like how strict it is. But MMOs, like it or not, need raiders to drive game development. They can't sustain a game by themselves, but they're the ones who complete content quickly and challenge the devs to make quality content faster. Games without raiding stagnate due to slow, if any, updates. Games that focus too much on raiding exclude too many people.

Citation needed.

Developers need raiders to challenge them? LOL.

Keep the attention of the majority casuals is more than enough challenge.

WoW just dropped to 5.6 million. A primarily raid focus game will no longer cut it. SE should take WoW's slow demise as a warning.

You're literally using what you claim to be the cause of this game being boring as your argument for why more skills could be added.

What?

Anyway my point is, the way raid balance constricts class design is the reason the game isn't as interesting as it could be. A lot can not be done because it would upset the precious "raid balance".

[DreadRabbit]

snip

I did read your linked post, and you're literally offering nothing new to the table with that idea. We already have cross-class skills you can't equip when you change to a job, but you can use as a class without a soul stone should you decide to go for utility over specialization. Look at that: you have a choice! And there's people on this forum who even forego the soul stone so they can use more skills for said utility and they can get through content just fine.

And outside of raids (which is content we've both said we won't do) those cross-class skills are 100% optional. No one's forcing you to use them. They weren't designed for your class. But there's a choice to customize your character's rotation with them.

I constantly see people either ignore or flat out refuse to use cross-class skills because "I'm a mage, I shouldn't use archer skills" or whatever. Fine, that's your choice. But if you're going to turn right around and complain that you have no customization available to you then you're ignoring what the game already offers just because it doesn't neatly fit into your labels, then you only have yourself to blame.

Now the rest of this wall of text isn't directed at you since I know you're in favor of cross-class skills. This is more towards people who want skill trees, specs, or just control over attributes.

I can only speak for BLM since that's the class who's level I have highest, but I have a ton of options to personalize my rotation and still be effective. Which is why I actually get a little offended that even other BLMs say we only have fire and ice. If you're only using fire and ice then you're the one pigeon-holing yourself.

Raging and Quelling Strikes aren't required skills by what I see in DF. As only one other BLM I've ran into in DF actually used either one. Raging especially you don't have to use now that we've got Enochian. But I can choose to still have that skill on my hotbar because whenever Enochian's down, I can pop Raging instead depending on the stance I'm in whenever Enochian is gone. Some people find that redundant and would rather swap Raging for something else. Quelling strikes in theory isn't required because I've seen most tanks be able to handle BLM enmity magnets without it in place. But if you choose to have it there, it can take some stress off the tank or make up in case your DPS-ing partner isn't attacking the right person (or you on accident aren't, you can pop that to help mitigate the mess that's been made).

I don't have to have Physick/Psycik on my hotbars because my healing ability is utter trash compared to healing roles. But for those that choose to use it, it can actually pull you out of a bind. I can't count how many times I've had to drop my role as DPS, go into Umbral Ice, and start healing because the healer died for whatever reason. Or the healer's taken damage in a boss fight but they can't afford to take attention off the tank. Pop a few heals on them while I'm regenerating MP, they don't even have to waste cooldowns or AoE healing on members that didn't need it. They could keep doing what they're doing.

I don't personally use Virus because I don't know fights as well as others, but I've seen a BLM who did to great effect and it helped the tank. We have skills that teleport us to another player to help get out of the bad. Skills to prevent damage to party mates. Etc. SMNs have even better utility because they can Raise. They certainly don't have to, but it is amazing when they do.

Now in games that do skill trees or specs, I do not have the same flexibility in what I can do in a fight as I can here in this game. In WoW as a Warlock, if my healer dies I can't suddenly help with the healing until someone gets that healer back on their feet. I can't resurrect that healer. My single role is DPS and boy does that game want me to do nothing but DPS even if the situation would be more fun/helpful if I could step out of that box for 10 seconds to aid my party.

That's not even all the skills BLM, one job, has as optional skills that we as a class can use. There's plenty of skills in our own native toolkit that are honestly optional/situational that players flat out refuse to even look at. Then they scream the job is boring. Now other classes/jobs might not have that same flexibility through their cross class skills. And if that's honestly true, then I can see why people feel the need for more customization. But given the vast number of players that ignore over half the skills my own class/job can use, I'm sure others in other roles do the exact same.

Skill trees and such pigeon-hole you into doing one job and one job only. At least in this game with cross class abilities should shit hit the fan, I can switch gears on a dime and help my party until we're on our feet again. Name me a game with skill trees or specs that gives me that same variety and I will gladly shut up.

[Sandpark]

We already have cross-class skills you can't equip when you change to a job, but you can use as a class without a soul stone should you decide to go for utility over specialization. Look at that: you have a choice! And there's people on this forum who even forego the soul stone so they can use more skills for said utility and they can get through content just fine.

I actually get a little offended that even other BLMs say we only have fire and ice. If you're only using fire and ice then you're the one pigeon-holing yourself.

Skill trees and such pigeon-hole you into doing one job and one job only. At least in this game with cross class abilities should shit hit the fan, I can switch gears on a dime and help my party until we're on our feet again. Name me a game with skill trees or specs that gives me that same variety and I will gladly shut up.

Yeah we have big choice on classes. But that won't work in duty finder or pre formed parties with strangers because jobs are better at roles than classes are.And that is fine, I like the way jobs are so restricted into a certain role. I was one of the people who said blms are refined to ice and fire, which isn't true if you count side skills like sleep or other things. I was referring to the the bread and butter damage. Just as I dislike a DPS having to resort to one or two weaponskills to deal the most damage in most situations.

I guess the truth I don't like. Is how combat resides with enemy identities. All jobs have some utility, but the enemy I am facing has little bearing on what I do. Sure some might resist stuff, but the same strategy can be used for basically most enemies encountered, if you take away order of AoE dodging types.

Enemy identity is something that would not work in tight based group content though. Because SE cannot make everything in the dungeon utilize and remember each jobs customization and would lead to members getting shunned if they don't fit the bill. But the open world could work in enemy characteristics to create more opportunities for us to cast different damage skills depending on specific situations.

[DreadRabbit]

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I guess by offended I mean more like when people think that's the only thing worth doing. You're right, fire and ice is our bread and butter for sure.

You make a good point with enemy identity though. And I have to agree that I'm hard pressed to find a solution to that one to make things like elements have a meaningful difference. But if they can do that in say, open fields like you suggested, I'd be on bored for that one because then it's like adding another game mode without messing with what we already have.

[Sandpark]

I guess by offended I mean more like when people think that's the only thing worth doing. You're right, fire and ice is our bread and butter for sure.

You make a good point with enemy identity though. And I have to agree that I'm hard pressed to find a solution to that one to make things like elements have a meaningful difference. But if they can do that in say, open fields like you suggested, I'd be on bored for that one because then it's like adding another game mode without messing with what we already have.

FFXI had abyssea. It was either a godsend or a bane depending on the user. In those zones a system of needing certain skills to mix and if combined correctly would grant you lights that extended your play time in those zones or cause enemies to drop rare items. Abyssea was different from the outside world. In there, you were a god. Outside, you were a normal human again.

While the endgame content before Abyssea was fun, comparable to FFXIV dungeons but more open. I never had any content before that let me do stuff outside the party only mantra and have worthwhile rewards. Well later I did, when I figured out my blm, monk, and rdm could solo things meant for parties. Fun as hell though, when I didn't feel like doing standard group content.

So it changed the rules outside the normal game we were used to but I never got bored or had problems adjusting to the outside world. The content did kill most other open world leveling due to being able to enter at 30 and leech though and it made the gear a little too good. It sent most gear acquired over years rendered obsolete for a time.