Job Personalization: Can I Have It?

[Izsha]

*hands back mic* I think you need this back.

FF14 was a complete trainwreak from top to bottom with only exception being graphics, which most people couldn't fully enjoy on their pc's anyway. Blaming one game system for the fall of 1.0 is just ludicrous.

It was sarcasm. I've said no less than 3 times in this very thread that job balance or customization or whatever other single thing doesn't sink games by themselves. I played ffxi for 9 frigging years and it was one of the worst offenders of balance issues.

Just because the ac breaks in a car doesn't mean the car is crap, and I may not sell it just because the ac is broke. But that doesn't make it ok to stop putting ac in cars.

These customization systems under discussion have a history of failing. They don't singlehandedly sink games. But that doesn't make them a good idea. They are still a detractors to gamer experience because of the balance and other side effects that have been PROVEN to come woth these systems.

There's is a solid track record of negative effects of these systems. Plugging ears singing lala want make these same systems somehow not have negative effects if implemented here. Nothing suggested hasn't been tried (and flopped) in the past so why should the doubters (who have years of failed attempts bcking up their opinions) yield to the proponents who have provided no examples or reasons why this time would be different other than their say so? There is no evidence to support you ideas, yet mountains to support the doubters of these systems. We've been burned before. Why should we put our hand back on the stove? Because you say so? No thanks.

[Saggo]

/runs back and pics up mic again.

When I said reinventing the game and it failing, I mean adding in the systems under discussion and those systems historically failing. Not that changing the game itself always fail. Maybe I wasn't clear enough.

I think you're being too loose with the term "reinvent" when for the most part this is just adding subsystems, but it wasn't a big deal, so I didn't make that big of a deal about it.

Yeah, even Blizzard seems to think skill trees are either a failed system or dated for the times, seeing as they axed the system in favor of set skill lists like FFXIV. What they didn't axe was the dual-spec system, which became a huge highlight of their game. It's a personal favorite of mine and a solution I think would neatly solve player variation vs the "illusion of choice". Obviously SE disagrees with me, since they tried a very similar system with ACN, SMN, and SCH and all but outright called it a failure. But it is a proven and successful system, with true choice. And the EXP requirement for leveling a new job is a pretty huge deal.

As for the time it takes to design, develop, balance, and implement, it's their job. They obviously have time to work on new content, the only difference is if what one of us thinks is important vs what SE thinks is important.

Don't drop mics, those things are expensive.

[LandricFrey]

/busts out mic once more.

That's amazing to me. You've played the same game for 9 years and it had a job customization system in it. Not saying that's why you stayed, you've made it clear that you don't like it, but just wow. That's some loyalty.

And I do apologize for not recognizing you from your previous posts here, it's hard to remember all of the people who've said they loathe this game system. From the "likes" of my original post compared to that of the first post against my proposal tell me the forum community is pretty evenly split. Obviously in that situation, SE would go the easiest path of changing nothing(like they'd ever make such a large change based on a forum post anyway). Who knows, maybe in 4.0 we'll all be ready for it again, or maybe SE will make every class completely the same, all abilities the same, just with different names, so they can make sure the game will be perfectly balanced.

/gently drops mic on a fluffy pillow

[CGMidlander]

You want concrete? Fine.
You can kill any monster with the right cross-Class skills and gear solo but it would be easier with a friend or 2. A randomly stranger could help you out (and maybe get an additional drop for himself; i.e. it has no impact on the reward you get) without feel obligated to perform to a specific standard - remember he/she will just be doing you a favor.

You're basically describing dull and incredibly easy content already in the game, like treasure maps and B rank hunts.
(Low damage and HP, so can be done solo. No mechanics, because what can be done with a single player is, frankly, not much.)

Anything combat related that can be done solo in this game is not difficult. It can't be, due to how vastly different the solo capabilities of each class are.

So you are suddenly the definitive authority on what MMORPGs must be?

I made no such claim.

I said that the the kinds of design decisions a game developer may be able to make for a single player game may not necessarily work for an MMO.

Except FFXIV is an MMORPG; not a single player game. The kinds of mechanics and balancing that goes into single player games is totally different, because the world centers around one player.

Single player games don't have to worry about (but are not limited to) the following:
-Interactions with other players
-Persistent environments (e.g. You can't have a major city like Limsa destroyed, but in a single player game you might have points where large facets of the game world can change)
-Loading of multiple, sometimes hundreds, of other players
(Performance optimization and simplification of graphics is a greater concern than in single player games as a result of this)
-Cheating/exploits (Some single player games like GTA even have cheats built in. But in FFXIV, we can't restart crafts from where we left off if we DC, due to cheating concerns.)
-Server considerations (e.g. Player information stored on the server)
-Game balance (A great deal of single player games have game-breaking items/skills that you can use to trivialize fights and/or just be overall godly)

The crux of the matter is "obligation". Can I give away all the money in my wallet to some dude on the street and make his day better? Sure. But no one will fault me if I don't.

Current MMO group content involves a lot of "obligation", you must do this, you must do that, ...

Imagine group content where you don't have to do anything you don't want to - the only one who will suffer the negative consequences will be you; if you choose to. It will be nice if you did but no skin off anyone else's back if you don't.

My logic was thus:

If a player has the ability to positively impact the group's activity by doing something (e.g. finishing a task faster), then they have the ability to negatively impact it by not doing it. (e.g. causing a task to take longer than it could have taken)

Why would a group take a person who does nothing, when they can take someone who will do something? The person who does nothing is worth less because they do less.

Nothing you've said so far counters my argument.

Your analogy makes no sense either, since, a "group activity" implies that you are working with other people to achieve a common goal.
A person on the streets is not someone you're grouped up with for a common goal.

[Sandpark]

I wouldn't like dual specs because that would probably mean less jobs. Less jobs/classes equal less unique story. Look at Swtor, it's known to have really good class stories. They let you spec between Tank, Heal, DPS but no different stories to go along with that. They only have 4 classes in two factions which are variations of the same class.

I think I would prefer unique story and jobs/classes, especially in FF which has a butt load of possible jobs. Would like some horizontal progression on classes though. If they don't do that then classes should be omitted. While balance is needed in both open world and dungeons. Content that is made open world can be tuned towards personal progression and be less demanding of balance if large static groups are not what this content is based around. Public events would be fine and dandy.

An open world with horizontal type progression is why games like Elder Scrolls, Dark Souls, etc are so popular. You can label them single player games. But there can be single/duo player content existing along side your standard raid mmo progression.

[Izsha]

That's amazing to me. You've played the same game for 9 years and it had a job customization system in it. Not saying that's why you stayed, you've made it clear that you don't like it, but just wow. That's some loyalty.

And I do apologize for not recognizing you from your previous posts here, it's hard to remember all of the people who've said they loathe this game system. From the "likes" of my original post compared to that of the first post against my proposal tell me the forum community is pretty evenly split. Obviously in that situation, SE would go the easiest path of changing nothing(like they'd ever make such a large change based on a forum post anyway). Who knows, maybe in 4.0 we'll all be ready for it again, or maybe SE will make every class completely the same, all abilities the same, just with different names, so they can make sure the game will be perfectly balanced.

/gently drops mic on a fluffy pillow

There were lots of things I loved about xi. Fighting tooth and nail to justify my reason to exist in group play was not one of them (I played thief and dragoon which were generally in the bad tier for the majority of the games lifespan). I don't wish that kind of discrimination based purely on the class you play on anyone. You guys remember the no melee allowed, bard only dps and pld only tank groups after 2.0? That, but far worse ad extending for years, not months and ultimately still never fixed.

The reason I don't see the value in a spec system in 14 is because of the armory system. In a 1 char 1 job game like qow, there is a serious advantage to being able to vary the playstyle of a single class. You're stuck with it. If I could only be a war on this char, and to play a dps I had to make an alt, do MSQ again, and all that crap, I'd be much more inclined to have a dps spec on war instead. But as that isn't the case, I feel it's really just a duplication of the armory system we already have. Sure you have to level it up, but that's nothing compared to a 1 class 1 char design. That's why it works in wow, but would be just unnecessary system duplication here. It kinda undermines the whole purpose of the armory system. It's just aesthetic at that point. "I wanna melee like a drg but look like a drk doing it with drk dps spec!" Or, you could just plau one of the 3 melees we already have when you get a hankering for some hurtin.

Trees and customization stuff generally has wide ranging balance issues and that's no fun for anyone but the flavor of th month job/combination. Specs aren't nearly as hard to balance (they are static like a new job not hundreds of olayer chosen combinations to worry about) and have a valuable place in 1 char 1 class games so you can change it up occasionally without starting from scratch. But the armory system already fills that purpose here. Why have 2 systems to do the same thing? Sounds like a lotta work for for nothing.

Specs: change more easily. No real 'cost'. It's convenient

Armory: more work, but also FAR more options and varying play available. Sure you can't play a melee dps drk flipping a switch. But for some effort you can play a melee, or a bard, or even a healer! Or nuke stuff woth black.magic. it's far more flexible than the 2 or 3 options specs afford at the cost of more effort. That's fair tradeoff to me. I never have to redo all starting over char junk to do something different.

Tldr: specs serve the same function as armory system. It's redundant.

[Saggo]

Tldr: specs serve the same function as armory system. It's redundant.

It's a similar function, but it's not strictly the same. You brush aside how much of a chore leveling can be, especially after completing the MSQ and burning out sidequests. Leveling ACN and having access to both SMN and SCH has been invaluable to me, and I am not the only person with that testimony. Notwithstanding that any job outside 1 tank, 1 healer, 1 melee, and 1 ranged is superfluous, except for aesthetics and playstyle. Aesthetically, I love that they both derived from the same base class and playstyle, something a strict adherence to the armory system dissuades (overlap between distinct jobs is frowned upon if not technically impossible).

We don't need to have "tradeoffs". We could have had both, and have a world of options and variety. All for a respectable cost of work, since balancing either is essentially the same process (additional work, but not new work). What kept SE from continuing a dual-spec/job/whatever system was a choice in vision, not any design limitations. I'm well aware it's likely never going to happen and would have left it laid to rest, except they already tried a variation of it and I'd argue successfully.

[DreadRabbit]

You want concrete? Fine.

Thank you. Now those are legitimate ideas. I don't agree with them, but at least it's more than other people here just saying "we don't have personalization, give us more!" No you may not be paid to design for SE, but having had to make amateur stuff before I can say it doesn't help at all for people to tell you "you need x" without giving you an example of why or how x could be done or used. Devs aren't magicians that can read our minds.

So I'll say it again: thank you. I mean that sincerely.

An advantage to specs is not requiring a person to fully level another job just to play another role. Minor, but important.

What game have you played where with specs where a DPS could suddenly be a healer if an emergency during the fight rises? Or a tank? Most games with specs if you wanted to play a different role, you didn't have to just level up a new class. You had to level another character entirely to play that role.

Specs limit you to more of the same. You don't ever step out of your DPS box (or tank box or healer box) for even two seconds with specs. Now could they completely rework the idea of specs so that what I just mentioned is possible? Yeah...but why? It's already possible now. What would specs bring to the table that we don't already have beyond number crunching?

[Saggo]

What game have you played where with specs where a DPS could suddenly be a healer if an emergency during the fight rises? Or a tank?

Well I never said, but thanks for not reading.

And this,

Most games with specs if you wanted to play a different role, you didn't have to just level up a new class. You had to level another character entirely to play that.

wasn't in WoW. Paladin could spec as healer. Druid could spec has tank, healer, melee, or caster. And just about every healer had a dps spec. It goes on.

[Dhex]

I don't see how it's fair that an Arcanist can "spec" as a Scholar or Summoner while every other class is stuck in a single role when they unlock Jobs... That's an imbalance.

If they can't come up with equally viable divergent specs - then why not bring in more Job crystals for the classes already in game? Jobs have enough to define them as unique now with all the additional ability quests 50-60.

Why not use the PVP style skill/trait upgrade system for PVE? Link