Job Personalization: Can I Have It?

[Saggo]

/runs back and pics up mic again.

When I said reinventing the game and it failing, I mean adding in the systems under discussion and those systems historically failing. Not that changing the game itself always fail. Maybe I wasn't clear enough.

I think you're being too loose with the term "reinvent" when for the most part this is just adding subsystems, but it wasn't a big deal, so I didn't make that big of a deal about it.

Yeah, even Blizzard seems to think skill trees are either a failed system or dated for the times, seeing as they axed the system in favor of set skill lists like FFXIV. What they didn't axe was the dual-spec system, which became a huge highlight of their game. It's a personal favorite of mine and a solution I think would neatly solve player variation vs the "illusion of choice". Obviously SE disagrees with me, since they tried a very similar system with ACN, SMN, and SCH and all but outright called it a failure. But it is a proven and successful system, with true choice. And the EXP requirement for leveling a new job is a pretty huge deal.

As for the time it takes to design, develop, balance, and implement, it's their job. They obviously have time to work on new content, the only difference is if what one of us thinks is important vs what SE thinks is important.

Don't drop mics, those things are expensive.

[Sandpark]

I wouldn't like dual specs because that would probably mean less jobs. Less jobs/classes equal less unique story. Look at Swtor, it's known to have really good class stories. They let you spec between Tank, Heal, DPS but no different stories to go along with that. They only have 4 classes in two factions which are variations of the same class.

I think I would prefer unique story and jobs/classes, especially in FF which has a butt load of possible jobs. Would like some horizontal progression on classes though. If they don't do that then classes should be omitted. While balance is needed in both open world and dungeons. Content that is made open world can be tuned towards personal progression and be less demanding of balance if large static groups are not what this content is based around. Public events would be fine and dandy.

An open world with horizontal type progression is why games like Elder Scrolls, Dark Souls, etc are so popular. You can label them single player games. But there can be single/duo player content existing along side your standard raid mmo progression.

[CGMidlander]

You want concrete? Fine.
You can kill any monster with the right cross-Class skills and gear solo but it would be easier with a friend or 2. A randomly stranger could help you out (and maybe get an additional drop for himself; i.e. it has no impact on the reward you get) without feel obligated to perform to a specific standard - remember he/she will just be doing you a favor.

You're basically describing dull and incredibly easy content already in the game, like treasure maps and B rank hunts.
(Low damage and HP, so can be done solo. No mechanics, because what can be done with a single player is, frankly, not much.)

Anything combat related that can be done solo in this game is not difficult. It can't be, due to how vastly different the solo capabilities of each class are.

So you are suddenly the definitive authority on what MMORPGs must be?

I made no such claim.

I said that the the kinds of design decisions a game developer may be able to make for a single player game may not necessarily work for an MMO.

Except FFXIV is an MMORPG; not a single player game. The kinds of mechanics and balancing that goes into single player games is totally different, because the world centers around one player.

Single player games don't have to worry about (but are not limited to) the following:
-Interactions with other players
-Persistent environments (e.g. You can't have a major city like Limsa destroyed, but in a single player game you might have points where large facets of the game world can change)
-Loading of multiple, sometimes hundreds, of other players
(Performance optimization and simplification of graphics is a greater concern than in single player games as a result of this)
-Cheating/exploits (Some single player games like GTA even have cheats built in. But in FFXIV, we can't restart crafts from where we left off if we DC, due to cheating concerns.)
-Server considerations (e.g. Player information stored on the server)
-Game balance (A great deal of single player games have game-breaking items/skills that you can use to trivialize fights and/or just be overall godly)

The crux of the matter is "obligation". Can I give away all the money in my wallet to some dude on the street and make his day better? Sure. But no one will fault me if I don't.

Current MMO group content involves a lot of "obligation", you must do this, you must do that, ...

Imagine group content where you don't have to do anything you don't want to - the only one who will suffer the negative consequences will be you; if you choose to. It will be nice if you did but no skin off anyone else's back if you don't.

My logic was thus:

If a player has the ability to positively impact the group's activity by doing something (e.g. finishing a task faster), then they have the ability to negatively impact it by not doing it. (e.g. causing a task to take longer than it could have taken)

Why would a group take a person who does nothing, when they can take someone who will do something? The person who does nothing is worth less because they do less.

Nothing you've said so far counters my argument.

Your analogy makes no sense either, since, a "group activity" implies that you are working with other people to achieve a common goal.
A person on the streets is not someone you're grouped up with for a common goal.

[Saggo]

Tldr: specs serve the same function as armory system. It's redundant.

It's a similar function, but it's not strictly the same. You brush aside how much of a chore leveling can be, especially after completing the MSQ and burning out sidequests. Leveling ACN and having access to both SMN and SCH has been invaluable to me, and I am not the only person with that testimony. Notwithstanding that any job outside 1 tank, 1 healer, 1 melee, and 1 ranged is superfluous, except for aesthetics and playstyle. Aesthetically, I love that they both derived from the same base class and playstyle, something a strict adherence to the armory system dissuades (overlap between distinct jobs is frowned upon if not technically impossible).

We don't need to have "tradeoffs". We could have had both, and have a world of options and variety. All for a respectable cost of work, since balancing either is essentially the same process (additional work, but not new work). What kept SE from continuing a dual-spec/job/whatever system was a choice in vision, not any design limitations. I'm well aware it's likely never going to happen and would have left it laid to rest, except they already tried a variation of it and I'd argue successfully.

[Saggo]

What game have you played where with specs where a DPS could suddenly be a healer if an emergency during the fight rises? Or a tank?

Well I never said, but thanks for not reading.

And this,

Most games with specs if you wanted to play a different role, you didn't have to just level up a new class. You had to level another character entirely to play that.

wasn't in WoW. Paladin could spec as healer. Druid could spec has tank, healer, melee, or caster. And just about every healer had a dps spec. It goes on.

[Dhex]

I don't see how it's fair that an Arcanist can "spec" as a Scholar or Summoner while every other class is stuck in a single role when they unlock Jobs... That's an imbalance.

If they can't come up with equally viable divergent specs - then why not bring in more Job crystals for the classes already in game? Jobs have enough to define them as unique now with all the additional ability quests 50-60.

Why not use the PVP style skill/trait upgrade system for PVE? Link

[Gilthas]

I don't see how it's fair that an Arcanist can "spec" a Scholar or Summoner while every other class is stuck in a single role when they unlock Jobs... That's an imbalance.

And the developers are moving away from that system. Notice how all 52-60 abilities are tied to Jobs and not Classes and how the new jobs don't even have a base Class.

[Dhex]

And the developers are moving away from that system. Notice how all 52-60 abilities are tied to Jobs and not Classes and how the new jobs don't even have a base Class.

So why do Arcanists get to have the freedom to swap between roles? I thought this was all about balance and fairness and whatever else - why does one class get two Jobs, two roles, and half the leveling investment?

Why does a specific class getting multiple Job specs seem acceptable - but not acceptable for every other class? Or what?

So we've seen how 35 bonus stats & 9 skills can do a lot to shift a play style/role with SCH/SMN. Are you just scared Square can't figure out how to balance this stuff?

[elemental10]

snip

Imbalance in a game means that one class triumphs another in a specific role. In this case, ACN is completely balance in both of the roles; SMN for dps and SCH for healer. SMN's are preferred and are not locked out of party composition over other DPS nor the same with SCH over any other healer.

Your interpretation of balance of branching class into two jobs is a misunderstanding. When we talk of balance, we talk in specific roles. If one class in DPS can do this thing with this success rate, then the other classes in DPS must also be able to this thing with the same success rate, +/- one or two points. This is why in MOBA games, balance is such an important thing. We don't want a hero to triumph over all other hero as this one role, otherwise everyone would play it and others who would choose other hero in that role will always get discriminated. In MMOS, its a lot less eye-catching because of the elements of PvE, where solo-content is viable. Only in PvP and group content, can you really see how balance plays a big role, especially the raids.

It's not that SE can't figure out how to balance this stuff, it's just that right now we already have imbalance issues; AST, PLD and the rangers. They can figure this balance issues out but it needs time and a lot of dedication, time and dedication that can be used to figure out other problems or create a lot of content.

Just to note that I do support for some customization, not the opposite. I am merely pointing out that I do not think it would be done as soon as all of us would like.

[Enkidoh]

So why do Arcanists get to have the freedom to swap between roles? I thought this was all about balance and fairness and whatever else - why does one class get two Jobs, two roles, and half the leveling investment?

Why does a specific class getting multiple Job specs seem acceptable - but not acceptable for every other class? Or what?

It was an experiment - the single Job upgrades for Disciplines of War and Magic originated during the later part of version 1.0's service, where as ACN was actually dummied out of the game (thus was never playable in 1.0) and was only finally made available in ARR, hence SE decided to experiment with it having two Jobs come off it instead of one (mostly, because the game needed a second healer Job).

Naturally, due to oversights in how stats are implemented (their decision to have a single base stat control the potency/effectiveness of that class's abilities), this didn't work as well as SE had hoped, thus the experiment was deemed a failure - SE decided not to implement second Jobs for any of the other classes leaving ACN having two Jobs an orphan pretty much.

Personally I'd like to see SCH removed completely from ACN and given a new base class (or even made into a classless Job like the 'extra Jobs' added in Heavensward), but I guess that probably won't happen.