Job Personalization: Can I Have It?

[Nadirah]

The truth is.. that someone will find an optimal build and 95% of players will use that build. Regardless of their end game aspirations. Also people will get called out and 'bullied' if they don't perform amazing while not using the optimal build. The fights will be arranged around said build and then people will complain that their talent is useless etc. It's a lot more work for the developers for little profit.

I like the idea, love it. But in practise it really doesn't work, almost all MMO's with talent choices have that problem.

This.

False.The challenge would be greater, though I still wouldn't argue this when we have the some of the most talented devs in the world working on this game. There are other games out there with a balanced custom class system in place. There’s no reason SE couldn't do it and do it better!

Balance is already a bitch and you want to make it even harder?

[Kallera]

Always interesting to see cries for talent trees, when most games are getting away from them.

I think its less embracing a specific brand of customization, than a desire to get away from homogenization.

[justinjarjar]

I think its less embracing a specific brand of customization, than a desire to get away from homogenization.

But which one? Since everyone has already voiced concern for FF11, wow, rift, and many other mmos skill trees.

[Izsha]

I saw FFXI and Diablo thrown around in this thread and I find it funny when they're lumped in a sentence with the word "choice." You may have an argument with D2 since it is the only Diablo game that promoted class diversity, but XI and D3 are far from having any choices. Unless you think 5/5 Warcry merits and not using the latest flavour of the month 6pc set in D3 will get you anywhere.

All very true. I only pointed out diablo because you can d some wonky terrible skill/gear build even in d3 and have fun. You won't survive the highest difficulties if you aren't the current patches cookie cut and people won't take you in their group farms. But that's OK when you can viable play any diablo franchise entirely alone however you want. Your choice to be incredibly sub optimal doesn't impede other people's progress. It did in xi and does in 14. That's why this doesn't work here. Both games require groups to function together to do virtually anything of worth. People playing the wrong spec (war/whm for example) were a detriment. What's worse was that ENTIRE JOBS were suboptimal and if you loved that job you were just stuck on the bench.

Here we currently have every class as a viable option. People can play any job and not be punished for it. SE learned from xi just as wow learned from their early days. Every company is moving AWAY from specs and trees because it fails. Every. Single. Time. Companies are learning, but people are trying to send us back to the stone age where you pray to the patch gods every few months that your current favorite class/spec doesn't get hit by the nerf gun just so you can keep playing it without suffering or buff your crappy spec into god mode so you can get back in the fray.

It's been tried a million times. It's failed a million times. What's the definition of insanity again?

[Kallera]

By that logic we should have no new jobs ever, or even as many as we do now.

[MilesSaintboroguh]

By that logic we should have no new jobs ever, or even as many as we do now.

Why don't we do that? That way the current jobs can get more awesome abilities.

[Izsha]

By that logic we should have no new jobs ever, or even as many as we do now.

And you see all the complaints about how homogenized classes have become? Because the more different something is the exponentially more difficult it becomes to balance. Ueah, at a certain point there is no point to adding new jobs because it will disrupt balance or just be a reskin of existing jobs. You could have a shield healer and healing healer (sch and whm), because having 2 complimenting jobs when there are 2 slots is easy to balance. Same with war and pld. Soon as the added a 3rd wheel, suddenly the all became more similar. You think that was an accident? It was done to maintain balance with any combination of 2 outta 3.

War had lock down on frequent busters via IB. Pld had lock down on sustained mitigation via shield. Now war had a boss sustained parry ability (super high uptime) pld got a 1 hit spike reduction they can spam lime IB (shelltron). Same deals with heals. Sch got strong aoe heal. Protect and shell are everyone's toys now. Etc.

the more jobs you add things can only move in 1 of 2 directions.

1: homogenization. Classes stay balanced because they become more alike.
2: increased uniqueness. Game becomes unbalanced because you add more variables. Every new unique class creates exponentially more combinations of powerful unique abilities. Players will discover the synergies between them and create overpowering combinations that cannot be mimicked by other combinations leading to imbalance, favoritism and exclusion.

Skill trees, customization, more unique jobs all fall smack into #2. There is absolutely a point that adding classes is pointless. They either become dev intensive reskins or wreck game balance. Skill trees just shove down the unbalanced road, unless the differences are so miniscule that they offer no real change at all. But at that point it's the same a new job reskin. Bunch dev time for no gain.

nope nope nope.

[odintius]

Here we currently have every class as a viable option. People can play any job and not be punished for it. SE learned from xi just as wow learned from their early days. Every company is moving AWAY from specs and trees because it fails. Every. Single. Time. Companies are learning, but people are trying to send us back to the stone age where you pray to the patch gods every few months that your current favorite class/spec doesn't get hit by the nerf gun just so you can keep playing it without suffering or buff your crappy spec into god mode so you can get back in the fray.

I would say there more reasons to why a game fails then just completely blame it on spec and trees aspect that just silly, I'm sure you would agree. Besides it not like ffxiv is some new innovated game with all new game mechanics that never been seen before, no I would argue it sets a bare medium for a typical standard game, that not to difficult for the average gamer to understand. It's a quick pick me up to play type game, that not future gaming here. It's keeping it simple and not overly complex to appeal to casual's mostly, it's more stagnant I would say just like staying in the stone age but less complex, I like this game don't get me wrong it fun it in own way.

[Kallera]

I just don't see the point of making everything bland and predictable.

[Izsha]

I would say there more reasons to why a game fails then just completely blame it on spec and trees aspect that just silly, I'm sure you would agree. Besides it not like ffxiv is some new innovated game with all new game mechanics that never been seen before, no I would argue it sets a bare medium for a typical standard game, that not to difficult for the average gamer to understand. It's a quick pick me up to play type game, that not future gaming here. It's keeping it simple and not overly complex to appeal to casual's mostly, it's more stagnant I would say just like staying in the stone age but less complex, I like this game don't get me wrong it fun it in own way.

I never made such a claim. I never said specs singlehandedly kill games. I played ffxi for 9 years. The game still had people playing it even if the job balance was utter crap.

I said whenever and 'customization' system is attempted in cooperative team based MMO, it fails. The system fails. Not the game in its entirety. And if tried here, the system would fail, just like it always does. Wow had it, the game didn't die but they desperately tries to retool away from it. Ffxi tries every patch for a decade to balance the jobs and did nothing but seesaw and pass the hot job potato around for 10 years. It never got fixed. It never was an asset. To this day people talk about the good things about the game but always have to caveat that the job balance and exclusions were major issues for its entire lifespan.

nope nope nope.

I just don't see the point of making everything bland and predictable.

If you never played a game with these failed systems, I understand that sentiment. It seems boring and bland. But if you have played one of those games this blandness is a godsend. If you looooove playing let's say, ninja, but ninja sucks really really bad and every PF doesn't have the nin box checked, people kick you from DF on site because your a nin, your friends dodge you because they don't want to carry you, and it's not even because your a bad player, but because you chose to play nin you realize why bland is good.

Imbalance is far more detrimental to many players experience than blandness could ever be.