Please let BRDs use Empyrean Arrow and Iron Jaws outside of Wanderer's Minuet

[Rafaelhades]

snip

I don't deny that they could tweak it a bit more, but it's not the spawn of Satan everyone makes it out to be. Have the procs appear a little bit sooner maybe? I don't think they took into account the speed most players will queue their skills and they didn't configure this into their programming. Repelling shot, SS procs.

Yes I "work around" Repelling Shot because I don't get my panties in a twist for that extra 0.5 secs I'm not spamming my key. If it really bothered me, I'd swap out of WM when using Repelling, but that can be seen as "working around" the "issue." If that was the case, then every job had to "work around" their new skills also. I suppose that's why every job, even DRG, are cropping up all over this board with complaints about their new skills. Except SMN and WAR, of course, although it'll only be a matter of time.

[Snowaeth]

I don't deny that they could tweak it a bit more, but it's not the spawn of Satan everyone makes it out to be. Have the procs appear a little bit sooner maybe? I don't think they took into account the speed most players will queue their skills and they didn't configure this into their programming. Repelling shot, SS procs.

Yes I "work around" Repelling Shot because I don't get my panties in a twist for that extra 0.5 secs I'm not spamming my key. If it really bothered me, I'd swap out of WM when using Repelling, but that can be seen as "working around" the "issue." If that was the case, then every job had to "work around" their new skills also. I suppose that's why every job, even DRG, are cropping up all over this board with complaints about their new skills. Except SMN and WAR, of course, although it'll only be a matter of time.

So you agree that it could use some work from SE's side, yet are trying to downplay anyone posting their issues.
How are we supposed to let SE know this? By pointing out the issues. It doesn't matter how big/small they are, if we just shut up about them then we ll always have them.
It's as if suggesting improvements to a class suddenly became a bad thing.

You'r able to work around the issues, I am able to work around the issues, does that mean there are no issue?
It's like having a car and the car functions just fine, except sometimes the brakes don't work if you try to brake too soon and you might need to "re-queue" your brakes.
Sure you can just learn to work around that and according to you at that point the car has no issues right?

[dragoelete]

Your oGCD usage most definitely requires more thought and attention in 3.0 w/ Minuet. When we go back to 2.0 BRD style it's always buff + BL, Flaming Arrow + BL, Blunt Arrow + BL, Repelling Shot + BL. There's more of an oGCD priority system required when Minuet is up. I'm not going to argue which is better. But I like having to swap between the two and playing both styles in the new savage encounters as well as the primals. Granted it's about 95% Minuet uptime which it seems you're not a fan of. Guess there's always 4.0. Who knows what changes will come then?

yes and from what i am reading and what i have seen in raid videos of bard it is still pretty much like that only now its more cast a skill then BL then cast next skill o wait BL proced so BL again next skill cast no BL proc so straighter shot next skill BL ... again... so on and so forth

[Rafaelhades]

So you agree that it could use some work from SE's side, yet are trying to downplay anyone posting their issues.

I see room for improvement but people, including you, make it seem like it's some game-breaking oversight. I'm all for suggesting improvements, but everytime this subject is brought up, it's anything but. It's more "WM sucks! TAKE IT OUT!" or "I don't like BRD, I quit." Notice my first post in this thread stated my PoV. Nowhere did it state "BRD's perfect. Git good." It "felt" more fluid to me once I got used to the casting time. Somehow, this statement threatens your cause? It was a response to someone who said GB is meant more for MCH than BRD is for WM.

Car analogy: If I can drive the car just fine at that point, then I'd say there are no issues on my end. If it starts to become a problem, then I'll fix it. If it can't be fixed, I'll send it back. If other people have the same issues with that model and can't or don't want to drive it, by all means, take it back to the manufacturer. But what does that have to do with BRD? We both agree it functions just fine in the content we're given. We both acknowledge that the issues can be worked around. You happen to think the issues need to be fixed. I am content with what we have. If they buff/fix it, great. If they don't, I'm still playing BRD. Again, why is that suddenly some kind of indication that I'm trying to shut down any attempts to make BRD better? Is it the fear of SE seeing that some people are fine with the current state of the job, and therefore, see ample evidence to not make adjustments? Should we all forego our own opinions on the matter just so SE can see the BRD community as a whole struggling with WM and are forced to change it? I don't have issues with WM at this point in time. You and some others do. Leave it at that.

[Snowaeth]

I see room for improvement but people, including you, make it seem like it's some game-breaking oversight. I'm all for suggesting improvements, but everytime this subject is brought up, it's anything but. It's more "WM sucks! TAKE IT OUT!" or "I don't like BRD, I quit." Notice my first post in this thread stated my PoV. Nowhere did it state "BRD's perfect. Git good." It "felt" more fluid to me once I got used to the casting time. Somehow, this statement threatens your cause? It was a response to someone who said GB is meant more for MCH than BRD is for WM.

Car analogy: If I can drive the car just fine at that point, then I'd say there are no issues on my end. If it starts to become a problem, then I'll fix it. If it can't be fixed, I'll send it back. If other people have the same issues with that model and can't or don't want to drive it, by all means, take it back to the manufacturer. But what does that have to do with BRD? We both agree it functions just fine in the content we're given. We both acknowledge that the issues can be worked around. You happen to think the issues need to be fixed. I am content with what we have. If they buff/fix it, great. If they don't, I'm still playing BRD. Again, why is that suddenly some kind of indication that I'm trying to shut down any attempts to make BRD better? Is it the fear of SE seeing that some people are fine with the current state of the job, and therefore, see ample evidence to not make adjustments? Should we all forego our own opinions on the matter just so SE can see the BRD community as a whole struggling with WM and are forced to change it? I don't have issues with WM at this point in time. You and some others do. Leave it at that.

I replied to you saying this: "WM felt "clunky" at first but when you let go of the OCD "must BL all the time every time it's up," it started to feel more fluid."
You'r telling that letting go, of a core mechanic is how you fixed the issue for yourself. This comes down to a work around and not a fix.
This doesn't threaten my case because my case is independent of yours at this point, since you let go and work around flawed mechanics (And no flawed does not mean broken, flawed means the opposite of flawless, where flawless means that it has no issues).
Where I am pointing out the flaws and would rather see those being fixed instead of left in game.

Our disagreement doesn't take away the fact that we both are able to play bard by working around the issues and that the bard when played well around these issues can perform number wise.
This however is a game and not a numbers only thing. Games are designed just like cars and just like anything that's designed it can be good or bad design.
You can't look at the end performance and say it's fine because the numbers tell so, because you'r ignoring the process behind the numbers at that point.
And I suppose this isn't the case for everyone but the core idea behind a game is enjoyment, so people saying they don't enjoy/feel/like something is a valid concern when it comes down to a product made for that purpose.

Just like my car example you just said that you would be fine driving a car with flawed brakes if you knew how to work around the flaw where a simple mistake would cost you the ability to brake potentially causing a (lethal) accident.
Because you think it's fine the way it is, or even if it's not you, then another person driving that car could cause that accident, but hey they should have worked around it.

Simply because I can perform and work around issues which if you didn't realize yet I'm not a fan of, yet they don't slow me down just make me enjoy the skills less.
Doesn't mean that I don't see the flaws with the skills and would rather have them fixed for my enjoyment or for the sake of other people that actually do have issues with those skills.

And there it comes down to the last bit, you have no issues, yet you don't mind things being polished more.
Well people that actually do have issues are the one that need these fixes, thus indeed the ones that need to be listened to.
If the fixes do happen which you don't mind either, then there will be happy people on both sides rather than unhappy on one and not caring on the other.

Yet somehow it is YOU that sees everything I say as some kind of attack on your ability to voice your very important opinion "that you have no issues".
Yet you are not the one that needs anything changed and yes you are downplaying the concerns voiced by others by pointing out people that are voicing their dislikes in a very nonconstructive manner.
Well a nonconstructive dislike is still a dislike just because they don't communicate it well doesn't mean they don't have a valid reason to dislike something.
But as a work around we probably can close our eyes and pretend there are no issues.

[Lux_Rayna]

Every job has issues. SE knows implementation of WM wasnt perfect. They arent stupid. SE also knows they did well enough for BRDs to still perform at a high level. At this point we are talking about QoL issues.

I get it, you see that your speedometer caps at 150 but you can only seem to push to 135. Some are happy with 135, others are not satisfied. Give SE time to tune.

[AiiroOkami]

Snip

Sorry to say this, but nobody will take seriously a guy who only claims "WM sucks ! Change it !".
If you are not constructive, everyone just assume you're just a whiner and we won't even take your opinion on the subject.

SE can look at WM "issues" if there was a real issue DPSwise, which is not the case. As long as you can play it and clear content, SE takes it as a well-done class.
Maybe they will change it at some point, but not now and not with the attitude people have against them. Don't forget that they are the masters of the game and can do whatever they want. And there are more important issues than the BRD at the moment that SE are taking care of.

[Rikkustrife]

Sorry to say this, but nobody will take seriously a guy who only claims "WM sucks ! Change it !".
If you are not constructive, everyone just assume you're just a whiner and we won't even take your opinion on the subject.

SE can look at WM "issues" if there was a real issue DPSwise, which is not the case. As long as you can play it and clear content, SE takes it as a well-done class.
Maybe they will change it at some point, but not now and not with the attitude people have against them. Don't forget that they are the masters of the game and can do whatever they want. And there are more important issues than the BRD at the moment that SE are taking care of.

Snowaeth has been constructive, they created the thread with ideas on how to make WM better.

Also SE did say they would look at classes and provide changes in 3.1, so how do you know they are not? They never said they wouldn't.

[Velhart]

Sorry to say this, but nobody will take seriously a guy who only claims "WM sucks ! Change it !".
If you are not constructive, everyone just assume you're just a whiner and we won't even take your opinion on the subject.

SE can look at WM "issues" if there was a real issue DPSwise, which is not the case. As long as you can play it and clear content, SE takes it as a well-done class.
Maybe they will change it at some point, but not now and not with the attitude people have against them. Don't forget that they are the masters of the game and can do whatever they want. And there are more important issues than the BRD at the moment that SE are taking care of.

People will complain about WM till its completely out of the game, no matter how well SE polishes it. People don't like change no matter if it is for the better or not.

[AiiroOkami]

Snip

I was not saying that he was not constructive, I disagreed with the fact that you don't have to be constructive to be heard.

I can be wrong, but they already did changes some weeks ago of WM, maybe they will fix some little problems (Fire Arrow is one of them), but don't expect "real" changes like a lot of people here want (No cast time but still the skill from WM for example).
I can be wrong, but I don't feel like SE want to change the core gameplay of WM