Paladin Adjustments (3.?)

[Faytte]

PLD DPS in Sword Oath is fine. PLD hate is Sword Oath blows.

PLD hate in Shield Oath is fine. PLD DPS is Shield Oath blows.

PLD/DRK have major TP issues.

I would say even in shield oath, it blows. Paladins have to use rage of halone far more than either other tank has to use their enmity generators. Hell--Dark Knights barely even have to touch their own, regardless of stance it feels. Warriors same.

[SirTaint]

I would say even in shield oath, it blows. Paladins have to use rage of halone far more than either other tank has to use their enmity generators. Hell--Dark Knights barely even have to touch their own, regardless of stance it feels. Warriors same.

It is definitely the weakest of the 3 tanks for sure. The saving grace is the STR debuff needs to be reapplied in most fights so we are using it every 3rd combo regardless.

I really think SE saw what PLDs were doing by the end of 2.4-2.5 and knee jerked too hard the other way.

[FallenWings]

Why does Sword Oath "aggro issue" need an answer? Pre-3.0 PLD had problems "not" pulling aggro of the main tank when they were trying to push DPS as off tanks.

A Sword Oath PLD can still hold hate but would have to spam Rage of Halone like they did before. Naturally nowadays PLD's want to be using Royal Authority and Goring Blade more which as you guessed; doesn't have Increased Enmity. Therein lies the issue of tanking with Sword Oath while dealing optimal damage.

A Warrior can do so because their highest potency is ON their main Enmity Skill which they would rotate all the time to deal optimal damage. This is further increased by Maim and Deliverance also indirectly increasing their Enmity by directly increasing the damage of their Enmity skills. Sword Oath does not create the same effect for Enmity because it is just flat 50 potency.

A Dark Knight can do it because... That's kind of their thing. A DA Power Slash generally seals the deal for enmity in grit and out of grit. Sauce it with Darkside having the same aforementioned affect on their enmity skills and you can see why the two are capable of holding aggro in their DPS stances.

This is true of FoF, as much as it's true of Darkside or Maim or Deliverance.

It's much more appropriate to compare FoF with Berserk and lolBlood Weapon since their application is more aligned.

SwO is somewhat equivalent to Maim and Darkside without the benefit of directly affecting your enmity skills.
Although I may be wrong now due to our overall increased average potency per GCD. I still think that 50 pot is much fatter than 5%.

[Phoebus]

The only glaring issue i see with PLD at the moment is that clemency cast time is too long.

PLD might be lower dps of the 3 tanks, but for the utility they bring they are balanced.

As for threat during OT i think we should look at this in context of what it is being referenced to, which i believe is Alexander Savage.

For my group it just makes more sense to let the warrior start the fight to help establish aggro for the two tanks then do a tank swap after the PLD has burned FoF in sword.

[Phoenicia]

Snip.

You missed my point. Any % increase to PLD's SwO will throw them ahead of WAR in terms of DPS. Do the math. Don't fix a problem by creating another (fixing aggro issues by upsetting tank DPS).

PLD's aggro in SwO AND ShO is behind the other tanks not only because the other tanks have higher potency on their aggro combos but also because of the enmity skills multipliers themselves. Here are the multipliers against their counterparts:

Savage Blade is 200 x3. Skull Sunder is 200 x3.5, Spinning Slash is 220 x3.5.
Rage of Halone is 260 x5. Butcher's Block is 280 x5.5. Power Slash is 300 x5.5 (or x6.5 with DA, not worth blowing DA for).
Circle of Scorn is 250x3 (only class that involves its AoE in its ST rotation is PLD). Shield Swipe is 210 x3 (I think, it's the only skill that I haven't personally tested) but is also a DPS loss.

I think SE thought that in a full rotation of over 22.5s you have GB > RoH > RA you have 2 Savage Blades and Rage of Halone and ~1 Circle of Scorn while spamming Shield Swipe would be equal to the other tanks. But using Shield Swipe makes you lose DPS and the enmity gain is not enough.

A real fix to PLD is not to increase their DPS, but fix their enmity multipliers. The enmity combo needs to match the basic multiplier of the other tanks. No damage potency needs to be added.

If you want to compare buffs for DPS comparisons, let's look at it this way:

PLD has FoF which is similar to Berserk. DRK has no real DPS CD. Blood Weapon is an MP recovery and the 10% speed boost is a bad joke from SE. lol
DRK has Darkside which is similar to Maim. PLD has no version of a constant DPS buff.
PLD has Sword Oath which is comparable to Deliverance. DRK has no comparable DPS stance.

[Naelle]

A.) Hard to do 3s cast when you are interrupted. Every. Single. Time. due to boss autoattacks

B.) By the time your heal lands after 3s your target has probably been healed anyways.

Stoneskin is usually a better use of time as it will always help as opposed to Clemency, which is subject to fight conditions.

A.) I've yet to have my clemency interrupted a single time. Maybe I'm lucky or special.

B.) If you're precasting this won't happen. You're not meant to use this spell every time someone takes damage

[FallenWings]

You missed my point. Any % increase to PLD's SwO will throw them ahead of WAR in terms of DPS. Do the math. Don't fix a problem by creating another (fixing aggro issues by upsetting tank DPS).

PLD's aggro in SwO AND ShO is behind the other tanks not only because the other tanks have higher potency on their aggro combos but also because of the enmity skills multipliers themselves. Here are the multipliers against their counterparts:

Savage Blade is 200 x3. Skull Sunder is 200 x3.5, Spinning Slash is 220 x3.5.
Rage of Halone is 260 x5. Butcher's Block is 280 x5.5. Power Slash is 300 x5.5 (or x6.5 with DA, not worth blowing DA for).
Circle of Scorn is 250x3 (only class that involves its AoE in its ST rotation is PLD). Shield Swipe is 210 x3 (I think, it's the only skill that I haven't personally tested) but is also a DPS loss.

I think SE thought that in a full rotation of over 22.5s you have GB > RoH > RA you have 2 Savage Blades and Rage of Halone and ~1 Circle of Scorn while spamming Shield Swipe would be equal to the other tanks. But using Shield Swipe makes you lose DPS and the enmity gain is not enough.

A real fix to PLD is not to increase their DPS, but fix their enmity multipliers. The enmity combo needs to match the basic multiplier of the other tanks. No damage potency needs to be added.

If you want to compare buffs for DPS comparisons, let's look at it this way:

PLD has FoF which is similar to Berserk. DRK has no real DPS CD. Blood Weapon is an MP recovery and the 10% speed boost is a bad joke from SE. lol
DRK has Darkside which is similar to Maim. PLD has no version of a constant DPS buff.
PLD has Sword Oath which is comparable to Deliverance. DRK has no comparable DPS stance.

aaaaaand you missed my point!

To quote my first post:

Quick thoughts:

Sword Oath also increases enmity by 10%. Since the other tanks have their damage increase in the form of % damage up across skills which inadvertently affects their enmity skills as well, it would answer the SwO aggro issue while maintaining the same damage output.

Sword Oath additional damage potency on auto attacks have increased enmity. /shrug

However if the Enmity modifiers are true, then you make a valid point that those multipliers would indeed be a large factor in PLD's having issue holding hate in Sword Oath. Increased Shield Swipe multiplier however I think would not have a reliable affect as having Rage of Halone increased due to its RNG nature.

... and I don't think adding an enmity multiplier on Royal Authority is any fun. Granted that it may help, I don't necessarily think that increased multipliers alone would be enough to push optimal SwO PLD MT Dps without also directly affecting their ShO enmity to lolworthy levels. Perhaps Sword Oath re-tooled to be a 10% damage done instead of the auto-attack potencies along with buffing enmity of RoH combo? Feels too... Boring.

Idk man. Too many variables to consider.

[Dhex]

A.) I've yet to have my clemency interrupted a single time. Maybe I'm lucky or special.

B.) If you're precasting this won't happen. You're not meant to use this spell every time someone takes damage

You've never been interrupted casting Clemency? Not even in A1S with the 2.5k AA, 6k tank cleave, a Prey mechanic with 3-5k x3, and a 25k tank buster all happening within a 5s period?

Never? Because that's some special kind of luck. Pre-casting is great and all but I take issue with it because it assumes that there is no incoming healing coinciding with your use of Clemency and thus can only be effectively used in a lull - where it's viable use is essentially against fluff damage.

[Phoebus]

A.) I've yet to have my clemency interrupted a single time. Maybe I'm lucky or special.

B.) If you're precasting this won't happen. You're not meant to use this spell every time someone takes damage

I was relating my experience in Savage. For a direct example i found it more effective to stoneskin->rampart->stoneskin the two prey targets during A1S as the prey is being cast, however using clemency there isn't as helpful as the targets are usually near full hp and the healers are focusing them anyways.

Also, In Savage the boss auto attacks are around 2-3k so you get interrupted a lot.

Clemency does have its place, but it would be much more useful if the cast time was just a little shorter to make it easier to weave between autoattacks.

For example, A4N when tanks are picking up orbs it shines, but i can't speak for savage in that.

[Arannon]

I agree with a couple of these...mostly that clemency casting faster but with a longer recast is a good idea because, yeah using it as the ability works (healing yourself some, but getting a lot of benefit from healing others) doesn't work because actual healers cast times are so much shorter.

We can talk about it taking "Skill" to time the cast right before a big hit, but thats just "clunk"...a lot of our utility as paladins is riddled with "clunk". Cover for instance, classic, iconic paladin ability from FF...requires we switch targets, trigger it, and then stay within 10 yards of each other. Doable? Certainly...Easily doable in combat with people running around, not so much...

Divine Veil...its got "clunk" too...its a wonderful ability, a group stoneskin for 10% of the tanks health...that requires someone else heal you, meaning a macro to shout that its up in party is almost a requirement. It doesn't have any affect beyond that initial animation either, nothing to let folks know they've been shielded but the buff popup on their bar...still usable? Certainly...but its "clunky"...it could use an animation on folks affected by the shield, and the "veil" animation on the paladin should linger until the buff is "spent"

Clemency is the same, and like all the rest I feel would be perfect if they just made them a little less clunky to use. A faster cast time and a longer recast solves this. Its not going out any more often than it was, its still got a prohibitive mp cost, but its now loads more useful for its intended purpose of getting some healing out to your allies, which in turn gets some healing on to you.

Adjusting the animation on Divine Veil makes it more obvious for your healers to notice it without the need for a macro (Though I imagine everyone will still have one), and more obvious for your group when the shield goes out that the paladin just gave them a bit of a safety net.

Cover...I don't know what they could do with this, other than remove the targeting portion and make it work more like it would in the games...Paladin'll cover whoever has the lowest health within 10 yards of them for the duration...