NIN -- how does everyone else feel we're doing?

[Jim_Berry]

Content always seems to affect a job or two each time. I learned this from my many years of FFXI (2005 to 2014). At some point, people didn't want BLM (because of Nyzul Isle spam). With the release of Abyssea, BLM rose to shine while DRK and PLD dropped. I see the same thing going on here in FFXIV. I'd advise us to just stick with the job we love, and not drop it just because it's not needed in certain content or lacking in certain areas.

[MetalXR]

Ninja is still good, just not great, the Mudra lag hasnt been fixed and probably never will. I did 943 DPS with i186 and doing LB3 and LB1 with BR ping, using Battleping to help with mudra lag and Im just gonna go back to MNK next week with the eso weapon, but still Ninja isnt that bad atm, its just that the fights that we are comparing are really hard to compare with other classes, now if we start talking about Dummy parsers, yeah Ninja is behind but not that far behind, whats happening is that Ninja must crit his combo skills, and atm Ninja has the lowest crit compared to the other melees, its just impossible to compare when you have IR trait on MNK, 20s 15% buff on DRG and a 100% crit skill/action on both of them. Id say that if they fixed Mudra Lag and lowered the CD on DWAD to 60s Ninja would be better, wouldnt catch up 100% on DPS but still would feel much more rewarding to play, which is a thing that both melees got, fixes to their problems, DRG had low utility and DPS in general compared to NIN/MNK in 2.0, MNK had problems keeping up GL when PB was down or there was a big downtime, but Ninja got 2 utility skills that arent that rewarding to use (just like MNK got Purification that atm is useless).

[Atreides]

(just like MNK got Purification that atm is useless).

Purification is all but useless, it's a really nice ability and pretty much solves all our TP problems, so we don't rely on Ninja or BRD TP song. I'm sure bards lose more DPS from Paeon than you lose for using purification instead of Forbidden Chakra.

[MetalXR]

Purification is all but useless, it's a really nice ability and pretty much solves all our TP problems, so we don't rely on Ninja or BRD TP song. I'm sure bards lose more DPS from Paeon than you lose for using purification instead of Forbidden Chakra.

I agree thats worth it using it, but what I meant is, you cant starv in content(meaning A1 and A3, since idk if anyone cares about A2 DPS) atm thats why I think Its kinda useless.

[Jim_Berry]

*SNIP*

The funny thing is, from what I keep reading, NIN is behind in Heavensward content. If you go back and do, say, Final Coil, you'll see NIN still hitting higher.

[MrCookTM]

The funny thing is, from what I keep reading, NIN is behind in Heavensward content. If you go back and do, say, Final Coil, you'll see NIN still hitting higher.

This is what you read from NIN's. What is funny as hell is that once you read the MNK thread, there are a lot of posts stating how they are similar in ST dps, but lack the utility NIN has and thus need a buff.

The point is that outside of progressing savage, the difference (if there's any) is so small, it doesn't matter. Even If someone is doing savage progression, a player must play his job to it's absolute highest potential, otherwise the better player will just do better dps, no matter if NIN or MNK.

[Uppers]

a player must play his job to it's absolute highest potential, otherwise the better player will just do better dps, no matter if NIN or MNK.

Well bringing in the idea of skill to who will do the better dps is not relevant because it is a qualitative measurement and doesn't add anything substantial to the argument. What needs to be looked at are many different parses to actually see an average dps or median for each class. Right now it seems that DRG > MNK > NIN in terms of overall dps. But the problem is how much of a dps difference there is between the classes. It seems that DRG is between 100-200 dps higher than NIN which is pretty significant. The difference between MNK and NIN is not really known too well because DRG outshines them both too heavily so the difference is probably not that much between MNK and NIN. Essentially, MNK and NIN both need to be looked at but since NIN is the LOWEST of the 3 then NIN needs more of a look than MNK.

[MrCookTM]

Even though in my book NIN and MNK are still pretty even, I agree that skill should not be taken into consideration and I also agree that DRG shits all over the other melees in almost every aspect. What I wanted to point out though is more the fact that the difference between NIN and MNK isn't big enough (if there's any) to justify the sheer amount of complaints we see from both sides. If anything, I think it's justified to just ask: why not bring double DRG to every raid and not care about the other two? I think in order for SE to do buff anything about NIN or MNK, something like this needs to happen first.

[Craiger]

Well bringing in the idea of skill to who will do the better dps is not relevant because it is a qualitative measurement and doesn't add anything substantial to the argument. What needs to be looked at are many different parses to actually see an average dps or median for each class. Right now it seems that DRG > MNK > NIN in terms of overall dps. But the problem is how much of a dps difference there is between the classes. It seems that DRG is between 100-200 dps higher than NIN which is pretty significant. The difference between MNK and NIN is not really known too well because DRG outshines them both too heavily so the difference is probably not that much between MNK and NIN. Essentially, MNK and NIN both need to be looked at but since NIN is the LOWEST of the 3 then NIN needs more of a look than MNK.

I don't want to start any arguments, but since you were simply comparing DPS, and saying NIN has the lowest DPS, I just need to intervene...

It's true that NIN have the lowest DPS out of the 3, but lets say your group is doing 5500-6000 combined DPS in Savage (which is needed), while I don't really have the time or want to calculate the exact numbers(can't be exact either for that matter), Trick Attack is most certainly making up for that DPS gain MNKs have over them.

You personal DPS doesn't mean anything, you can have 700 DPS, but increase everyone else total DPS by 700. A job like that wouldn't need a buff just because they're miles behind on their own DPS.

DRG buffs BRD/MCH, I'm not forgetting that, but NIN doesn't need a look more than MNK

From what I've experienced so far, NIN is about 3-4% behind MNK in DPS. However, TA more than makes up for that. Math below:
TA is up for 10 of every 60 seconds, and provides a 10% boost in damage. On average this is a 1.67% boost in damage. But this is for the whole raid. Now lets assume healers arent DPSing, and that adding both tanks damage together is the equivalent of 1 dps. Thats 4 DPS that receive this boost in damage (not counting yourself, since that was already built into the numbers). 4 x 1.67% is 6.68% DPS, which nudges NIN ahead of MNK. If you time the TA with burst phases, and your healers DPS then this percent increase will be even higher.

That being said, I believe MNK brings more to the table in regards to AoE.

NIN and MNK seem to be fairly balanced, with NIN having the slight edge on single target and MNK having a slight edge in AoE fights.

This^

I don't usually like balancing towards AoE... but since NIN really sucks at it, and MNK is awesome at it now, I can agree that the balancing between MNK and NIN are pretty good.

It's them both that needs to move closer to DRG by an equal amount.

[Craiger]

If you NINs are gonna keep making threads about how you need a buff, please don't use MNK as a referencing point as to why you need that buff...

It's not like MNKs are being picked ahead of NINs or anything. If you use a DRK, which seems to be a good choice for A1 and A3 at least, then MNK becomes weak compared to NIN and DRG... Mantra alone doesn't make up for the utility and raid DPS than NIN gives you, and DRG just blows them out of the water with their DPS, as well as Litany...

Do you guys even consider Trick Attack? It might not seem like a huge increase overall for your group, and it isn't huge, but it makes them do more party DPS than MNK. You can't just be egotistic and only care about the DPS you get, because if you increase the overall DPS of the group, you're effectively doing more DPS than the parse is saying (I count that raid bonus as NIN's own DPS)

I'm not saying Tick Attack and the other utility makes up for the massive amount of DPS DRG can get (they give raid DPS in form of BRD/MCH buff), but MNK is the job that needs the buff the most, and still I don't see a ton of posts about that...