Is Paladin in a Bad Spot?

[Phoenicia]

I have posted this elsewhere but I will post it in its own thread.

The amount of paladins complaining about their class has been ridiculous. The job is fine as it is. It has its advantages, and it has its disadvantages. Just like every other job!

First of all, Paladin has not been my cup of tea from the day the game came out. Do not misunderstand me, I love the sword and board theme. I just dislike the simplicity of the job. I played it, however, when my raid group required me to go PLD. The job has massive advantages which I decided to dedicate this wall of text to.

Oh, I will apologize before hand for the wall of text!

Defense, CDs, Playstyle:
First of all, there is this massive misconception that PLD's mitigation is ahead of the tanks. It really isn't. Outside of Hallowed Ground, PLD does not mitigate more damage than the other tanks.

First of all, Shield Oath = Grit >= Defiance. They have the SAME EXACT effective HP with defiance having a little less effective healing, which is arguably negligible due to the fact over-healing is present in end game and WAR has the best self healing of the three tanks. Maybe warriors should complain more about this, yet they are the tanks that complain the least. /respect warriors.

Yes you have a shield, but it eats at your parry and you end up parrying far less than the other tanks. Also the other tanks have self healing which is significant and covers for whatever little advantage shield block has. Keep in mind damage reduction is not the only form of mitigation. Stoneskin and Galvanize are mitigation though they do not directly reduce damage, instead they add layers of HP.

As a matter of fact, spike mitigation wise, WAR is the tank that can pump its EHP the highest.

What PLD has going for it is the simplicity and straightforwardness of its tanking style. You anticipate damage and you pop a CD. You do not plan GCDs or leverage CD duration and time them hard to get the maximum benefit.
Example: ANY of the PLD's CD will mitigate Flatten + the three flare breaths after while a WAR has to time IB and even then wouldn't mitigate all 4 hits with just one IB but would have to couple Vengeance or Thrill of Battle or use infuriate for a second IB. DRK is in the middle ground with some of its CDs having less effectiveness than PLD but can be coupled with additional short CDs to add mitigation.

PLD is the safest and most forgiving tank of the three due to passive mitigation, long buff durations (Rampart 20s, Bulwark 15s, Sentinel 10s, Hallowed Ground 10s). Also PLD handles magic damage better than how DRK handles physical damage.

PLD also can render some mechanics silly with Hallowed Ground. Good CD rotations include HG in them to completely mitigate busters. While DRK can do the same with Living Dead on some mechanics (I'm looking at you Final Liberation). But LD doesn't even come close to HG which do not need as much healer attention.

DPS, Threat and AoE:
Yes, it kinda sucks that PLD has the least threat generation of the three tanks. It is no where near bad however. DPS will not pull off a good PLD. Not in single target nor in AoE. Yes if a WAR sets their mind on aggro neither DRK nor PLD have a chance (DRK grabs aggro on the first DA Power Slash but loses it soon after and never gets it back, DRK is also gated by its MP upkeep). And DRK will leave PLD in the dust. But does that even matter when DPS can't take hate off PLD?

It also sucks that PLD AoE DPS is near non-existent. Their AoE aggro is competent enough, SMN and BLM can't take aggro off a good PLD in AoE situations and that is what matter. All a PLD has to do is spam Flash and only worry about refilling MP after they close to 50% MP so they don't bottom down.

While PLD brings the least DPS of the three tanks, PLD is the easiest tank to heal. Giving the healers the most space to breath and DPS in return. Tell me you wouldn't use the 10s of damage invulnerability of HG to DPS as a healer! SPECIALLY when HG is planned as it should be. It is easier to plan healing and DPS around PLD's CDs over the other tanks.

PLD has the most useful aggro generating combo. Being the only aggro combo that also applies a debuff. It also happens to be the least potent combo of the three classes at 260 vs 280 BB and 300 PS. However it has the same aggro multiplier (x5) as the other moves. (PLD aggro multiplier on its aggro combo is lower than the other tanks' counter parts by x0.5). But PLD has one more skill with an aggro multiplier ahead of the other tanks with Shield Swipe. All three tanks have the basic aggro combo, the long range skill (lob/tomahawk/unmend), AoE (flash/OP/Unleash), additional AoE (CoS/SC/AD), but none of the other tanks have an equivalent for Shield Swipe. I think maybe moving Shield Swipe to off-GCD would help a lot however, Once a PLD has attention, it should not be that much behind tanks. Even in Sword Oath.

Now Sword Oath, people fail to realize that it is the most potent DPS stance in the tanks' arsenal. Adding roughly 11~15% DPS based on which weapon the PLD has. Yes it doesn't directly add to skill damage, but it still adds overall damage. Pre-HW, PLD used to have problems not grabbing aggro while off-tanking even against competent warriors. Now with the addition of new combos that is no longer a problem.

Main tanking in Sword Oath became a new issue. PLD has a "harder" time using all combos in SwO while staying far ahead other DPS and the OT than the other tanks. Resorting to more usage of Rage of Halone and less Royal Authority resulting in less than optimal DPS. But that is not too bad really. PLD forte is not DPS.

Utility:
Let's be honest here, NONE of the other tanks comes close to the amount of utility PLD has.

Divine Veil Useful for raid wide AoE. Though a long CD.
Stoneskin, though situational, has great uses. Remember in T9 where you SS'd yourself whenever the boss jumped? You can Stoneskin low health party members. I saved many party members that had weakness in T9/13 before AoE when the healers were too busy preparing for raid wide healing. This ability sees way more use as OT.
Clemency, also situational, can relief stress off healers and has uses in situations like in A2 or A4 (when you get pulled out and you don't have a healer). This ability sees way more use as OT/
Cover is awesome. It has had its uses since early 2.0. Examples:
- Castrum Miridianum, the adds ignored aggro, you could cover whoever has the adds.
- If MT dies in T9 during golem phases, you can cover the healer with boss aggro and save a wipe.
- T13 you can cover MT and pop HG to fully mitigate Flatten.
- Titan Extreme, cover MT and they you take the vulnerability stack instead of them extending the amount of time where you don't need a swap.
Hallowed Ground: Yes, this deserves a mention here. As mentioned before, it renders some mechanics silly and easy. Coupled with cover you can give the other tank (and healers) a moment of respite. It also made tanking ridiculous amount of adds or 2 dreads possible in T4 when WAR couldn't. Also it is the I-won't-die-button that requires the least amount of healing.

TL;DR
PLD is fine as it is. While simple is not necessarily effective. PLD is still the most safe, simple and effective tank to use. Yes it does the least DPS but it allows the raid to do more DPS. A buff to its threat generation would be nice, but it is NOT necessary by any means.
If a party kicks/refuses you because you're a PLD, they probably suck and want to blame their lack of skill (DPS) on the job the tank plays. Are you sure you want to be with them?

Again sorry for the long wall of text.

[Donjo]

Good writeup. What I think we're seeing with Paladin complaints right now is knee jerk reactions to the fact that Paladins aren't putting out enough DPS to meet the most severe of Savage Alexander's DPS Checks while we're undergeared. This should cease to be a problem in exactly one week, but the stigma will unfortunately remain.

[karateorangutang]

PLD will be fine til things go on farm. Then you will see them drop out of groups like a bad habit.

Which is fine if your viewpoint is looking at paladin as a progression tank... which i guess it is.

[Phoenicia]

Snip.

However, world first A1 and A2 had PLD in the group. They obviously did not fail the DPS check nor felt the need to change their MT to something not PLD.

Snip.

Even in farm groups. 100 DPS is not a factor to drop any job. Also PLD CDs can be planned around to increase raid DPS.

Based on that logic people should drop monk, ninja, BLM, SMN, BRD and MCN for the sake of DRG since it does the most DPS. DRG does 200 more DPS than SMN and 300 more DPS than BRD!! Ideal set up will be WAR x2, DRG x4, any healers.

[nyttyn]

However, world first A1 and A2 had PLD in the group. They obviously did not fail the DPS check nor felt the need to change their MT to something not PLD.

Just want to clear something up: World first A3 Savage had a extremely strict DPS check, so strict it took people a LOT longer than A1 and A2 Savage.

They had DRK/WAR, no PLD. So they evidently did feel the need to change to something not PLD.

[Phoenicia]

Just want to clear something up: World first A3 Savage had a extremely strict DPS check, so strict it took people a LOT longer than A1 and A2 Savage.

They had DRK/WAR, no PLD. So they evidently did feel the need to change to something not PLD.

Yeah, however, next week, people will have better weapons and that issue will not exist.

From my perspective, it's just the princesses are worried too much about losing their spot under the spotlight as the exclusive option to main tank. The fact that people kept trying the turn with PLD MT and only switching to DRK/WAR combo AFTER trying PLD/WAR shows a lot that PLD still has its default MT spot.

[nyttyn]

.

Or perhaps it shows that people are still going into heavensward with their bias from ARR intact, and are choosing to try out the new class now that PLD is struggling to meet DPS checks, and that the bias about "DRK sucking" due to some rather extreme knee jerking has been proven to be false.

It's too early to claim anything from Alexander Savage group compositions. Not until a week or two later - that's when we'll see if PLD's DPS differential is enough to convince groups to keep or drop them, when groups beyond just the bleeding edge world first start getting their clears.

[Calib0s]

Just want to clear something up: World first A3 Savage had a extremely strict DPS check, so strict it took people a LOT longer than A1 and A2 Savage.

They had DRK/WAR, no PLD. So they evidently did feel the need to change to something not PLD.

They actually had a few job changes in order to make the final DPS push here. A significant reason for the switch to DRK was that they dropped MNK but still wanted to have the -10% int debuff.

The slight extra DPS from DRK certainly wouldn't hurt though.

[ZDamned]

Based on that logic people should drop monk, ninja, BLM, SMN, BRD and MCN for the sake of DRG since it does the most DPS. DRG does 200 more DPS than SMN and 300 more DPS than BRD!! Ideal set up will be WAR x2, DRG x4, any healers.

LOL! I was just thinking about this yesterday! 4X Battle Litany rotating, keeping all the DPS and Both tanks above 35% crit chance for a very long time. @_@

[karateorangutang]

Even in farm groups. 100 DPS is not a factor to drop any job. Also PLD CDs can be planned around to increase raid DPS.

Based on that logic people should drop monk, ninja, BLM, SMN, BRD and MCN for the sake of DRG since it does the most DPS. DRG does 200 more DPS than SMN and 300 more DPS than BRD!! Ideal set up will be WAR x2, DRG x4, any healers.

LB charge and stat buff modifiers have to be taken into account too. Again, i'm not doubting the validity of PLD, but as fights are nailed down the risk for WAR decreases naturally with farm. So, you will see alot of groups bring double WAR when these things go on farm. Whether or not the dps difference is 50 or 500 won't matter.

Public perception will start to edge PLD out of the running in raids because in the real world when a group has an idea that one is better than the other they will go with that.

Additionally, those groups that run with a PLD and are comfortable with that will continue to do so. This is not going to happen all the time, but it will happen.

Lastly, I'm not saying they need to change PLD. IF PLD mains are happy with the way it plays then keep them that way.

Game is about fun, if PLD tank is fun for groups then that's awesome. Some groups though would have fun shaving a half a second off their times in savage... and 100 dps difference can do that.