PLD dps needs to be buffed, current dps a joke

[Ivellior]

And before people start: OMG You liked a SAV2 video! SAV2 is bad for PLD dps, it's sarcasm.
If are entitled to posting a stacked video against the WAR to prove your point, so can I post as video stacked against PLD to prove my point. At least in my video the stacking is blatantly obvious.
If you want actual videos go look in the other threads, you'll find right below the WAR Hivemind quote "that video doesn't count because the player sucks".

Edit:

And before this post descends into a flame war about videos (since this is not my intention) let me clarify a few things.

First of all, because there are so many parameters involved in this game it's not easy to accurately measure dps for tanks.
There are things like item optimization, enmity generation, mechanics, player skill, latency, how classes interact with each other, you name it.
The only feasible way to accurately measure that would be to create a group of bots that played the fight perfectly, had the most optimized equipment and used the best rotations. And run that group on Savage a few billion times to get the results.
I can't make that and I don't think even SE can make that. If they did, all the classes would ship balanced ready and they would never have to be updated. The only one able to do that is God (or whatever omnipotent being you believe in, if you don't believe in God).

That leaves the following options of how to get an idea of what the actual balance might be like:
1. Take a huge number of battles and compare median dps results. That might work for SE, but we can't really do it, since our only option is youtube where there are only a few videos and even fewer videos with parse.
It also has the inherent problem we are seeing here: "This battle favors WAR because aoe", "This player sucks", "he did that wrong" etc, etc. And for each video you or I can provide that "prove" a point someone can provide another 10 that proves the other point. It's like two people shouting to a wall. Good luck with that.
2. The other way is to take what is probably closer to the bot group described above: And that is the high end raiding players. If someone can come close to the max utilization of classes it's them.
We said that for PLD and you gave the argument: "You are not them, so it doesn't matter".

Or we can cherry pick a video and rage on because why not? (What is happening now).

I still stand by what I said before. The only way to fix this mess it to make defences worth something and turn the tanks into, well actual tanks, and not "beefy" dps that they are now. Or nerf tank damage to the ground.
On SE defence I can understand why they choose this META. They probably did it to make tanks more appealing to players, so that more players will play tanks. Let's not hide behind our finger here, big numbers are popular and that is why there is a metric ton of dps more out there compared to the other classes.
The problem we are suffering is that "beefy" dps is still dps and as long as the damage has big fluctuations (real or perceived) people will complain. Check the dps forum for that.

[Brian_]

Yes it's too perfect for your narrative, but only for that. Let's see. You have 2 people buffing the DRK and the PLD (slash debuff and TP). Why doesn't the WAR get a slash debuff and has to loose dps to keep it up himself? Why does the WAR suffer the full effect of pacification and you don't have a healer remove the debuff from him?
Why does the video cut off like that? Why doesn't the WAR have enough skill speed to fit 3 combos on one berserk (could be wrong about this one since it's not the tank's pov and you can't see the abilities and rotations used clearly)? As a matter of fact why isn't it a tank PoV so we see and judge their rotations easier?
The video is also ignoring 2 important the facts:
1. Gear optimization for each class. (For example +crit is way more beneficial on WAR than any other classes, plus you need skill speed enough to use 3 full combos in berserk).
2. No enmity generation. This just dps without building any actual enmity, which will never happen in a raid environment. You will have to go to tank stance to build enmity. Guess will build faster and more efficient and can go back to dps stance faster to do more damage.
So you have a video where everything is stacked against the war, while helping the other two tanks as much as you can to get the result you want, and preach it like it's a fact. Talk about being disingenuous. In a real fight the margin will be not be smaller, it will be MUCH wider, especially with a good WAR.

Actually, I do believe that he doesn't play WAR because he didn't even notice that the WAR's opener was just wrong if all you're trying to do is maximize DPS. Either that or he's just being incredibly disingenuous which is probably also the case. The WAR doesn't open with Infuriate and extend it in order to land a Berserked triple FC opener. Instead he just opens with Heavy Swing and waits until 4 stacks of Abandon to pop Berserk.

[Reynhart]

And before people start: OMG You liked a SAV2 video! SAV2 is bad for PLD dps, it's sarcasm.

Actually, why would it be an acceptable answer ?
Why would it be normal for PLD to be so far behind in a heavy AoE fight ?

Maybe our single target DPS is not so bad when compared to WAR or DRK, especially if we have the slashing debuff, and someone to give us TP...but in AoE fights we're just useless when it comes to DPS.
So, I'll stick to one of my idea, change Shield Swipe into War Drum, with adjustment on potency to not be...hmm...overpowered (no pun intended)

A2S is also the typical example where "Just let the WAR MT and the PLD OT" is also not an answer.

Instead he just opens with Heavy Swing and waits until 4 stacks of Abandon to pop Berserk.

Well, if you want to do three Fell Cleave during Berserk, you have to build 4 Abandon before, I don't see the problem here.

[HoodRat]

Well, if you want to do three Fell Cleave during Berserk, you have to build 4 Abandon before, I don't see the problem here.

Well, if you want to use a sub-optimal opener, I don't see the problem here.

[Reynhart]

Well, if you want to use a sub-optimal opener, I don't see the problem here.

Yes...why ? How is that a sub-optimal opener since you won't have three Berserked FC if you pop infuriate right away ?
It's not like "building 4 stacks" takes 30 seconds...you can even pop a Brutal Swing right away and pop another during berserk.

[Brian_]

The opener that you actually use and one you should definitely parse is infuriate --> wait until abandon is about to fall off --> raw intuition --> wait abandon is about to fall off again --> begin. Everyone has to wait ~50 seconds or something like that for you but it is your optimal opener. What this ends up giving you is full abandon to start and because you used infuriate and waited at the start, infuriate will be back up in time to land a third fell cleave during your opening berserk.

So you start with extra crit from 5 stack deliverance, you don't have any initial stack building down time, you get your offensive CDs on CD sooner so that they are back up again sooner and you have better overall up-time, and in a live environment it lines up much better with the battle litany timings and what not.

In other words, you have to be a bad warrior or just simply not play warrior to not know something was obviously wrong.

In other words, the video was garbage and it's hilarious that people still link it thinking it's a fair comparison of DPS.

[Izsha]

Waiting for 4 stacks delays zerk by 6gcds. 18 seconds. Also delaying ir by 18 sec. You just nerfed ir by 30% and zerk by 20%. Delaying CDs is the same as sitting on them. Would you let zerk and IR sit unused for almost 20 sec in the middle of a fight? He'll no. So why would you do that at the start? It's a massive damage loss over time. Waiting to zerk for 3 fcs is delaying the use of zerk (damage loss) to try to get a slightly more efficient use of zerk (3 fcs). It's like staying locked in 1st gear. Sure you accelerate fast but your just burning all your gas in the long run and won't win the long game.

[SpookyGhost]

Yeah, for dummies, Faust, A1S, A3S, and possibly A4S (if you're OT I think keeping RI for Quarantine is worth it :V) you want to open with:

Pre-Infuriate -> Vengeance -> ~10s left -> HS -> Maim -> [Brutal Swing] -> SE -> [Pot] -> HS -> [IR + Berserk] -> FC -> Infuriate -> FC -> [Raw Intuition] -> SS -> BB -> HS -> Maim -> [Brutal Swing] -> Eye -> Fracture -> FC > Pacified

Or something to that effect.

Anyway a DPS comparison video on a dummy is a bit of a weird thing to do in the first place. So many variables to account for, so many runs you'd need to balance any exceptionally high or low crit runs... just way too much to account for and then find an average of. The same goes for actual fights, so many variables to be accounted for. I dunno. I'm just waiting for the inevitable patch where they change things with the tanks and seeing just how much they change (if they change anything at all outside of threat modifiers).

[Reynhart]

Waiting for 4 stacks delays zerk by 6gcds. 18 seconds. Also delaying ir by 18 sec. You just nerfed ir by 30% and zerk by 20%.

Except that you need to apply Maim and Storm's Eye before Berserk and Internal Release or you're missing a lot of damage. So they'll "sit" for at least 3 GCD anyway.

So you only have 10% more critical for one non-buffed Heavy Swing, 8% more for one-non buffed Maim, 6% more for one partially buffed Storm's Eye (and whatever fully-buffed skills you use before your next combo), 4% more for the next fully-buffed Heavy Swing and 2% more for the next fully-buffed Skull Sunder.
Besides, by using Vengeance or Raw Intuition in your pre-opener, you'll also delay their free Abandon stack during your rotation, and waste the free Abandon stack of Berserk.

Problem is, your opener only works with a very precise coordination with everyone's pre-opener buff and only if the main tank isn't "puller-happy". So it only brings more "artificial" numbers since you won't always pull this up in real fights. It's exactly like doing a PLD/DRK MT parse without considering their DPS increase from Shield Swipe (Before 3.0) or several Low Blows. And your opener is "better" only if those first hits crit in this small percentage.

In the video, PLD's rotation is at least one that can be used whatever the fight is as long as the target don't go away.

[Nadirah]

LB penalty? New one to me....