PLD dps needs to be buffed, current dps a joke

[Noira]

Yeah I never got the whole mp cost for shield oath and sword oath.

I could see if like DRK you could have them both up and sword oath would slowly drain mp.

Otherwise it doesn't make sense to have them use mp to activate.

[Brian_]

snip

It's not a choice and there are no options. All of what you have said is a fallacy.

It's the same reason why there is no skill tree in this game or why game designers are increasingly wary of providing people false choices. At the end of the day, it's not a choice because people will min-max, calculate an optimal set-up, and stick to that. There will be no variety.

The concept within design is called strictly better. DRK and WAR right now are strictly better than PLD. Now, that wouldn't be the case if PLD provided something meaningful to raid content. The problem is they currently don't.

DRK and WAR provide quantifiable and meaningful DPS increases. DRK, WAR, and PLD all have no issue surviving through incoming damage in Savage so whatever situational survivability advantages PLD has is irrelevant.

Now, if you understood anything about tanking in this game, you would know the current meta and why this type of balance was doomed for failure. The idea has always been -- meet a survivability threshold, full DPS thereafter. Tanks have been hitting an eHP threshold and then stacking DPS stats in order to push their DPS. So now, you have 3 tanks that all can meet that threshold but 2 of them start from a different DPS baseline.

In other words, blatant imbalance.

So, you might say "well, it's just the top progression groups pushing really tight DPS checks."

And...? What people don't understand is unless there is a difference in learning curve, everything scales down proportionately when judging lesser players. A DRK in the hands of an exceptional player will perform exceptionally. A DRK in the hands of a good player will perform good. An exceptional DRK will out DPS a exceptional PLD. A good DRK will still out DPS a good PLD. You cannot balance around different levels of skill. You might say "well since everyone will have more gear, it shouldn't matter." No. Gear effects everyone equally. A DRK with an esoteric weapon will still out DPS a PLD with an esoteric weapon. "But DPS will be better geared now so tank DPS won't be as necessary." So... basically a PLD has to rely on their DPS carrying them to their clears? How is that balanced or acceptable?

[Reynhart]

The idea has always been -- meet a survivability threshold, full DPS thereafter.

Amen

That's why I suggested that PLD would need something to completely change the whole party setup.
PLD having more mitigation and healing so that you could replace one healer by another DPS.

And for DRK...perhaps some debuff were anyone hitting the same target as them could gain either MP or TP, so you could replace a "buffer" by another full DPS.
For example, you could add another effect to Sole Survivor (And increase its duration to 30s) :
For each hit the "Victim" takes, the attacker gains TP. Dark Arts Effect : The attacker gains MP instead of TP.

It would also make the skill interesting when you fight only one boss and help the DRK replenishes some MP when hit by only one target.

And you could have the WAR as the best tank-DPS, but requiring a setup with two healers and probably a BRD/MCH.

Of course, in Duty Finder, every tank would be viable. But when you want to make a real optimized PT, you'd have several setups at your disposal depending on what people wants to play.

[Valkyrie-Amber]

so anyway not sure how these full dps plds do far better than I unless its a lie I was using goring 3 and Ra 3 not RoH combo at all.

My tests all single dummy solo as in only 1 dummy target no party no debuffs from another tank btw the way a parse should be done.

[Phoenicia]

basically a PLD has to rely on their DPS carrying them to their clears? How is that balanced or acceptable?

It is acceptable because PLD doesn't rely as much on their healers to keep them alive as the other tanks. PLD requires the least healing as it has the highest mitigation AND effective healing received. Oh and enough supportive skills that can be powerful if utilized.

Guess what? EVERY class in the game relies on the rest of their group to "carry them to their clears"! WAR and DRK still need healers to heal them, and DPS still need a tank to keep the boss's arse exposed for rear and flank attacks. If everything was measured by how much DPS an individual could do, groups would end up with 7 DRGs and 1 healer.

PLD is the safest of the three tanks, it has the highest mitigation and is not lacking in ANY environment. PLD's mitigation is superb in physical and is great in magical damage. DRK is just better at magical but DRK is utter shit in physical. PLD brings so much utility that if a PLD knew how to use its utility healers will have PLENTY of time to DPS. As long as PLD has all that going for it, it should never, ever DPS as much as the other tanks. And PLD is hardly doing 8% less than a WAR going full DPS.

Also skill trees and different builds aren't "False Choices". They can be done in various ways where different builds CAN exist. You are probably looking at games that "failed" in their skill trees and cookie cutter builds that proved mathematically superior existed. But why not look at games that successfully made different builds possible?

I won't go into detail as it doesn't matter, but the point is some games succeeded at providing multiple builds for different classes.

WoW successfully had multiple builds per class, while some classes went down to cookie cutter builds per tree, some other classes had 2 or 3 viable builds per tree. I remember rogues having two subtlety builds and warriors having multiple arms and fury builds.

Aion for example had the Stigma stone builds. While every class had a couple of stigma skills that they couldn't live without, they still had 7 to 9 slots that they could build in freely. Defensive templars were as viable as offensive templars. Each brought something that had a place for. DPS clerics and defensive clerics also had their place. Sorcerers had buff builds that were viable and had burst builds that were also viable. Same with Spiritmasters' debuff builds and spirit builds.

That's why I suggested that PLD would need something to completely change the whole party setup.

The developers do not want to stray away from the fixed group setup of 2 tanks, 2 healers and 4 DPS, so hybrids are probably not gonna happen.

PLD already has enough mitigation and support to allow for healers to add more DPS. PLD is by far the easiest tank to heal as it receives the most effective healing.

so anyway not sure how these full dps plds do far better than I unless its a lie I was using goring 3 and Ra 3 not RoH combo at all.

My tests all single dummy solo as in only 1 dummy target no party no debuffs from another tank btw the way a parse should be done.

Stop trying to play PLD like DRG. Your role is not to be the most DPS, it is to allow everyone to do their maximum DPS. You can help by providing more DPS and it was already proven that PLD is barely 6% lower than WAR (at ~940 vs ~1000). Not even much compared to the disparity between DRG (1300+) and BRD/MCH (~1100).

[OPneedNerfs]

Classic Phoenica going "NONONO I R RIGHT" and then proceeding with ad hominems and completely wrong statements.

Just wait, some "proof" with no parses are going to come out showing how "balanced" everything is.

I'll just enjoy the trainwreck of posts with popcorn in hand.

In b4 ad hominem on this post.

[Brian_]

snip

A PLD will always deal less damage than a DRK or WAR given the same environment.

The extra DPS is always helpful.

A PLD will only situationally have better survivability than a DRK or WAR.

Of those situations, only a handful actually matter. And when I say matter, I mean that it actually changes how they need to be healed to a significant degree.

Notice the imbalance here?

If PLDs were ALWAYS the best tank for survivability in any situation, then fine. That's an actual trade-off. They aren't.

Also, like I said, the tanking meta is what it is. That PLD has more survivability doesn't matter because once it is beyond a certain threshold, it is dropped for more DPS anyways.

As for every class needing others to carry them, let's use the parse you cling to for dear life as an example.

WAR requires nothing.

PLD / DRK requires a dedicated TP bot and someone to keep the slashing debuff up.

Nevermind the blatantly obvious flaws in how it's a dummy parse of pure DPS which is completely disconnected from PLD MTing. Also disregard the fact that people love to claim PLDs have higher overall mitigation and comparable DPS but fail to mention that a PLD needs to stay in Sword Oath to achieve said DPS so they won't have higher overall eHP. Swap back to Shield Oath at the appropriate times you say? Well have fun breaking your combos, losing GCDs, and gimping your DPS for that duration. Nobody has posted a real comparison of their DPS in actual live environments. But, we have multiple top progression groups dropping PLDs because they just didn't do enough. Think about that.

Raiding is a team experience, obviously. But, what we're looking at is different amounts of carry. The reality is WARs and DRKs in the current end-game don't require drastically different healing than a PLD. Ask the groups that have switched. It's not like because they're using a DRK instead of a PLD, their SCH is now stuck full-time healing. No. Their SCH is still full-time DPSing during light damage phases outside of spot support and support healing when the damage starts ramping up. So in the end, you have negligible differences in actual healing with real differences in DPS.

Next, design. Skill trees can offer variety when it's used to give the same class different roles. But, within those roles, there is very little variety at the highest level. I stopped playing WoW shortly before WotLK. I was in a guild that was consistently alliance first or second for all major kills on one of the largest PvP servers. The only reason we weren't server first was the horde first guild was a top 10 guild in the world. Back when I played, there was 1 tanking build, 1 DPS build, and 1 PvP build for Warrior. Maybe years later, Blizzard would find better luck with their skill balance, but there were obvious imbalances through stretches of WoW's history that lead to cookie-cutter talent builds that robbed players of their choices. To deny the existence of imbalances during a game's infancy is unbelievably stupid. Balance is something you work towards and something very hard to achieve. Last I checked, HW is still pretty new and yet you'll have some obviously biased voices clinging to the idea that everything is fine.

[Reynhart]

The developpers do not want to stray away from the fixed group setup of 2 tanks, 2 healers and 4 DPS, so hybrids are probably not gonna happen.

CT2 and 3 want to have a word with you.
"Turn 2 enrage 3 healers" strat would also want to have a word, especially when that setup was deemed a brillant idea by the developpers themselves.

This is without counting the numerous "solo tank" and/or "solo heal" strats that were proved to be more efficient on most content.

PLD already has enough mitigation and support to allow for healers to add more DPS. PLD is by far the easiest tank to heal as it receives the most effective healing.

You realize that, before HW, WAR had a better overall mitigation (Hallowed Ground notwithstanding) than PLD and that the gap between Shield Oath and Defiance is a little 5% healing receiving ?
How is it by far ?

[NFaelivrin]

Its worth noting, too, that in the transition between a realm reborn and heavensward warrior got a reliable defensive off-gcd in raw intuition and another self-heal in equilibrium whereas PLD got sheltron, which would be amazing if the thing it was made for (physical tankbusters) existed in any meaningful way in savage.

[Reynhart]

Its worth noting, too, that in the transition between a realm reborn and heavensward warrior got a reliable defensive off-gcd in raw intuition and another self-heal in equilibrium whereas PLD got sheltron, which would be amazing if the thing it was made for (physical tankbusters) existed in any meaningful way in savage.

Ok, it's nice to go towards the "right" end, but you can't dismiss Sheltron while still saying that Raw Intuition is good, since they have the same requirement, and ignoring Clemency.