PLD dps needs to be buffed, current dps a joke

[Faytte]

Eh--I'm not chaining storms path in AS1. I'm doing most of the fight in deliverance with eye on the boss. I'm not seeing 6K hits.

Just to correct you. I'll be re running it Saturday but the only time im throwing up path is before busters and for a little while after each one until healing is settled down.


For the most part, the damage debuffs arnt super userful in AS2 outside of small windows. Warriors are not tab targetting /storms pathing each target, and frankly paladins arnt either other than the heavy heavy hitters--its far better to burn everything down as quickly as possible. Paladin aoe dps in AS2 is a terrible joke. Warriors and Dark are leagues ahead of them, and everything being dead===the best form of mitigation.

We dont know what AS4 is, so its not fair to speculate. But given A4 had a buster every minute, then i would MUCH rather have a dark and a warrior taunting off eachother and using cds than a paladin who can hallowed -one- of them and otherwise has a 90 and 180 second cd to a dark knights 90/180/60 second cd + 10% debuff and a warriors whenever 20sec, 120, and 90/60 second bursty self heal and.

Enmity multipliers for the most part, are the same for all classes. I have no idea why you say otherwise. You can check spread sheets on this? All of the tank stances are 2x, all of your combos with extra enmity are 3x or 5x based on the part in the combo (rage of halone is 5x, butchers block is 5x, etc). The difference is the potencies are very different, but that is not the multiplier (which is what you brought up). Rage of Halone and an unmodified power swing are both x5x2, but one is a 260 combo and the other is a 300(so about 14% behind). Couple that with a Drk dps advantage in tank stance over a paladin (fof is 10% over time, dark side is 15% always) and there is a difference there. Now...go into offense, and things go out the window for the balance typically. They cant do things like dark arts /power slash and the extra damage from sword oath does not get any sort of enmity treatment, and in pulls like AS2, where a pack dies and you go onto the next pack, FoF being your soul threat/damage increases means it just wont be up vs Darkside/Maim being always available and enhancing that core ability.

So paladin without FoF smacks a group of boss with rage in Sword for...260 potency of aggro (x5).
A dark knight does is for 345 potency with dark side (no dark arts) x5
A warrior in deliverence butchers blocks for 352 potency (maim and deliverance) x5

Dark Knights also have some tricky ninja aggro. Every time you pop dark arts after aggro has been established, your getting the free 50 aggro from having popped a buff according to testing. Kind of nifty--and actually can add up rather well over an entire fight to being worth a few gcds worth of aggro itself.

[Disc]

WAR actually have 3.5x & 5.5x on their Skull & Butchers in addition to Berserk offering a massive DPS boost for their initial enmity combo, they also get to use their enmity skills for damage. The potency difference between DRK & PLD is 260 vs 300, or 271(Shield+FoF+Halone) vs 312(Grit+Darkside+Power) if you want to count buffs. You do not get to reduce it to it's overall DPS gain when discussing initial threat. DRK pulls ahead in enmity by pairing Dark Arts with power Slash for an enhanced enmity modifier, not potency boost. This is why I can safely tank out of grit until Plasma cannon only using Soul Eater combo(no enmity, never power slash) while my PLD struggles in Sword Oath using Savage at least 2 out of every 3 combos. Both tanks are generally fine after Plasma due to additional stance enmity generated & DPS disengaging for adds. Mileage will vary with your DPS of course. This is is where DRKs damage has the most significant impact because damage dealt is effectively doubled by the split.

edited for stances

[Phoenicia]

Using Unmend to recover TP is a DPS gain. You gain 150 potency and 50 TP (not 60, 2.5s = 50 TP) against the alternative of "stand there and wait for the TP tick".

INT Down is fine and allows for you to drop monk from the raid set up.

People bring MNK up because THEIR buff is MANDATORY to THEIR DPS. So a DRK applying INT down doesn't inherently increase the MNK's DPS by dropping Dragon Kick for the sure crit on Bootshine, causing a no synergy or added effect for having both jobs.
As opposed to warrior's slashing debuff actually INCREASING the NIN's DPS by allowing the NIN to drop DE for the far more potent (+80 potency) Aeolean Edge. Assuming the NIN natural rotation is DE > DoTs > AE > Armor Crush when Huton <30s.
Inversely, NIN applying the slashing debuff allows a WAR MT to go SP > BBx2 for maximum mitigation and threat uptime. This however is a raid-wide DPS loss and is not needed. Also not bringing a WAR and substituting it with a NIN for the Slashing Debuff and running a PLD/DRK combo "should" be a viable option. But people seem to ignore it. The "glaring" disadvantage of non-WAR TP issues are automatically solved by Goad in here. GREAT synergy between those classes.

The video I've seen of a PLD tanking As1 in Sword Oath doing a VERY healthy rotation of RoHx1, GBx1, and RAx1 while still pulling ahead of the DPS. The DRG was VERY close second (85% close) but the DRG never even tried Illusive Jump. I believe the video was linked in the other thread that I started. I'm not saying PLD doesn't need an aggro buff btw. I think PLD's having weaker enmity on its RoH combo is "balanced by SE" around the fact that CoS and Shield Swipe have aggro multipliers and are incorporated in their rotation. But with Shield Swipe being a DPS loss and a deharmonizer of their rotation, SE should probably rethink this approach.

While these early DPS checks are met by people that know how to maximize their classes and maximize raid wide DPS by increasing synergy between the classes. Other early groups are not THAT far behind. The math behind the maximum DPS doesn't change and those people do not have some secret ways to do more damage. They just have better execution. Most non-bleeding-edge but "good" players will copy the bleeding-edge players and pull close numbers. Hence people copy their strategies and rotations. The difference between the world first groups and the average static is the flexibility of creating new strategies, not some secret way of doing more DPS. Adding item levels will surely reduce those issues you're talking about.

[Faytte]

Link this video with a dps meter. My bet is if they could maintain that rotation off dps, that the dps was terrible.

[Adventica6]

What I got out of it all is pld is 150-190 dps less than drk, no matter how you slice it that's a crap load. He makes a point and no the extra tank cd's a pld has does not make up for that massive dps loss in the current content where only dps matters.

Do an experiment, run a dungeon with a warrior or drk then run one with a pld, and notice that the run took 2x as long because of no aoe dmg and mediocre single target. Most of the people going against the Op don't even have plds on their accounts.

[Disc]

Then you did not bother reading to figure out why PLD has lower DPS & would see the job buffed in preparation for a nerf when they finally do gear up.

[elemental10]

In the future, when these threads rule the forums, one day SE will think, "You know what? The players want a class that can do everything... Let's give them that and watch the subs FLY!"

And thus was born the job, "The Super Yoshi," or known as TSY. That's right. Say it. tes-sai. The class doesn't have a weapon and his weapon is only one... The Look. He uses his eyes to burn enemies to death and when he sneeres, the whole server is stunned for half an hour, unable to do anyhting. When he walks, his feet doesn't touch the ground and when he goes into a dungeon, his party members get kicked automatically and he blazes through the dungeon and kills the boss with The Look, in one hit. He get's instant lvl 60 once he gets out of Sastasha.

TSY will able to go invulnerable each time the player logs in and will stay like that. Nothing can damage him and all his attacks has a potency of 999999999, which has a base damage of 9000. He has only two attacks, and it's called "The Nerf Bat" and "The Buff Blessing." The Nerf Bat will kill any enemies instantly while anyone who got inside the circle will be nerfed to the ground and remains at 1 HP and 1 MP for an hour. The Buff Blessing will give him Super Speed, which he can use to walk through his allies and instantly make copies of TSY, which he can control, making the server full of TSY.

In the end, TSY remains the only class to be played... forever. FFXIV will no longer be playable because the server keeps crashing when a TSY logs in. Subscriptions starts to soar for a reason because everyone likes to play as TSY, because he can be anything and do anything and everything. He is the ultimate class, the one and only job that precedes all jobs.

The Super Yoshi, Producer Incarnate.

Moral of the story: If one class has highest damage, highest defense, highest everything... it'll probably break the game. PLD is a turtle job. He's a bit weak compared to others but he can survive a lot of stuff without a lot of hassle. In other words... You can't get everything you want.

[Brian_]

snip

Another critic without any end-game experience on PLD either in ARR or HW.

The situation is simple.

In the current content, any minor survivability advantage the PLD has is irrelevant because all three tank classes can actually live through the damage.

So in the end, you only have an imbalance in their offense and utility.

The added utility the PLD brings is also not enough to make for a 200-300 raid DPS loss.

If you actually did the end-game content in ARR, you would understand that WAR and PLD were pretty balanced. Both tanks had a place in raids, both healers had a place in raids, and all DPS (aside from SMN) was fairly equal -- though MNK and BRD were more commonly brought because of their utility.

In HW, 2 tanks are ahead of the third, 2 healers significantly outclass the third, and there are small imbalances within the DPS.

Yea, HW is still pretty new. You have to be a moron to think things are balanced. So, what we're doing is discussing how it is imbalanced. Telling people to shut up does not contribute to anything.

[elemental10]

snip

I'll bite this.

I didn't say anything about shutting up other people.

I only point out that there cannot be one single class that can do everything. So I'm not expecting a huge buff to apply to PLD. Only tweaks to their kits. Unless you want to see static people who main DRK or WAR gets pissed because their places gets replaced by PLD.

Besides, when the ilvl gets raised up, I bet these threads won't appear anymore because then people will complain about some other things...

[Galgarion]

Person A. "Peanut butter is sticky."

Person B. "Yet another person who has never been to Paraguay offering an opinion on Peanut butter."