Will we ever see group content that isn't a dungeon on rails?

[fortuona]

duty finder is part of the problem in that every piece of content has to play nicely with the exact same party composition. hopefully the options within the undersized party menu continue to grow. however, i would agree that too much of the game's basic structure revolves around it at this point to make any really drastic changes.

[jadan2000]

This would be cool to see. I feel like FFXIV has a chance to pioneer some great new content. So dont be afraid to make changes SE!

[Seryl199]

I'd love to see some non-linear content, but I understand that the current content has its place in the "theme-park" MMO. Still, not every ride at a theme park is fast and furious, so I don't see why we can't consider the same for dungeons. As long as the rewards are scaled with the investment of time it takes to complete the dungeon, I can see non-linear dungeons as being fun and successful.

At the very least, I'd like to see rare spawning Hunt targets in dungeons, maybe some that you can force spawn by solving a puzzle or killing mobs a special way, others with a low spawn chance, with non-critical but desirable drops like minions or glamours. Not enough players feel the urge to explore in dungeons as it is, very rarely do groups go down optional passages unless specifically asked, so I feel that players should be encouraged and rewarded for exploring, as a way to train their brain for a non-linear instance that involves more exploration.

[Aura_Shurifon]

Some dunjon had non linear route, but there was no incentive to do them (useless potion, or minion that sells for 1gil) so people started to rush forward... (Amdapor Keep NM for exemple)
They should put some craft item or gears in optional branch so you can rush boss if you need tomes or do everything if you need gear and item...

The new expert dunjon drop a lot of gears, they could have put some of the treasure chest on optional path and that could have done the trick (more or less)

[Delily]

To paraphrase Yoshida, if he had followed the advice of people who wanted FFXI 2.0, he would be out of a job. The request here is essentially the desire to have an immersive open virtual world, whereas FFXIV is more of an online game. Neither is wrong, but to Yoshida's point, if you want that type of gameplay, Square already offers that with FFXI. They have a pretty good idea of how well that game would fare in the current climate of the MMO market segment. His aim was to build a successful product from the wreckage of the previous attempt, so he did the best thing possible, taking something that has a proven track record and using it.

Requests like this are not wrong, but I think there is definitely a bit of nostalgia in play here. Look at other products that are more like worlds than games. Eve, UO, and FFXI show there is a market for those products, but it a niche market. WoW, LoTRO, and FFXIV show that there's a much bigger market for an online game. Again, in the context of trying to salvage a failed product, deciding the target the latter is the best decision possible.

They have a pretty good idea of well players would respond to less directed, more open content, which is why they are not implementing it.

[Tyla_Esmeraude]

Requests like this are not wrong, but I think there is definitely a bit of nostalgia in play here. Look at other products that are more like worlds than games. Eve, UO, and FFXI show there is a market for those products, but it a niche market. WoW, LoTRO, and FFXIV show that there's a much bigger market for an online game. Again, in the context of trying to salvage a failed product, deciding the target the latter is the best decision possible.

They have a pretty good idea of well players would respond to less directed, more open content, which is why they are not implementing it.

I would advise not to state the last sentence as a fact if you do not work with them closely to know that's the exact reason they are not implementing variety in content. :P
In my opinion, I think that the reason to why they haven't implemented other type of content is simply because they haven't had the time. They had to rebuild the game in little time and on top of that work on updates and the expansion, which brought 3 new jobs, which they already admitted was too much work and would never do it again like that. I am sure now that they have less stress on their shoulders they can focus on creating diversity in content. I do not work with them obvi, so I cannot state this as a fact but as a hypothesis of course.

Just because the game follows a certain used formula doesn't mean it can't have a more immersive open world. Just because of the formula, doesn't mean it can't have more interesting content than linear dungeons. Can anyone, anyone SUPER HONESTLY say they find all dungeons immersive and fun? That they login excited to do a dungeon for the dungeon itself and not for its rewards? Why would threads and comments pop up then if 100% of the community was happy to run linear dungeons? This is not the first thread about more immersive content/end game/ variety in the past few weeks. Rewards are nice, but even that reward won't justify running something that feels like a chore instead of leisure. I've seen people say how it just feels like a chore to login because you gotta do the same ol' same ol' in the past days. In game and in forums. I experience it myself too.

Also, FFXI is not a sandbox game like Eve. FFXI is a theme park MMO. You don't control nor affect the world in any way, the devs always set you a path you had to walk in. There was instanced content and outer world content (just like FFXIV!). So what is this niche market FFXI takes part of exactly? I don't see how the FFXI 2.0 comment is related at all.
We are not asking for FFXIV to be FFXI 2.0. FFXIV has already a lot of diferent components and plays way different. People wanted to have a faster battle system? Check. People didn't want to wait hours for people to form a party? Check. People wanted to have to travel less on foot? Check. People wanted crafting to be accessible? Check. (at least at the start it was. yes red scripts, i know, lets not go into that please, too many threads about that already lol) People wanted balance and no claim system because they don't like competition? Check. People wanted equality for all types of players in terms of gear? Check. How much watered down do people want this game to be?! This is why it feels bland. We are suggesting for more immersive and fun meaningful content, stuff that FFXI did right, to name examples. FFXIV though having used the WoW formula, is not WoW and it should not have to be. FFXIV should be its own game. We care about the game which is why we'd like to see it flourish and not let it get stuck in the "just another WoW like game". We are not asking for super hardcore unbeatable content like Absolute Virtue (though that would be fun), we are asking for more interesting, less linear content! In what possible negative way would that affect the game? How would that make it less successful?

If SE wants this game to be a stale and bland then that is their choice and people with a similar mindset as the ones asking for more interesting content can just unsub. But let's be honest, would this game REALLY survive on the same linear, non interesting, content for years? WoW already had its prime and was released a long time ago for it to keep a (now declining) playerbase. However, this is a different time, games cannot just rely on the same formula and stay afloat. FFXIV has an advantage because it's a well known, big, famous franchise. Would the game have survived on its own without the name FF behind it and with the linear content we have now?

By the way, all those games are online. They are virtual worlds. How exactly is FFXIV more of an online game than the others?

[Catwho]

Nyzul Isle in FFXI was probably the best "variety pack" group content. 100 floors, and you climbed 5 floors per run. Each floor was randomly generated to either be "kill all trash" or "kill this boss, do not kill trash" or occasionally puzzles using lamps and simple order games. (Well, not so simple when there were 6 people in the party, 5 lamps to light in the right order, 3 of which had aggressive mobs around them.) Oh, the random buffs and debuffs could make or break a run too. Kill all when the usage of melee was restricted? HAVE FUN. Each floor was also a randomly generated maze (although not quite a true procedurally generated dungeon, which would have been awesome.) Uncharted, aka Hard Mode, had you attempt to climb all 100 floors in 30 minutes, with floor jumps from 2-11 in between them. That required luck as well as tight team coordination.

[Delily]

I would advise not to state the last sentence as a fact if you do not work with them closely to know that's the exact reason they are not implementing variety in content. :P
In my opinion, I think that the reason to why they haven't implemented other type of content is simply because they haven't had the time. They had to rebuild the game in little time and on top of that work on updates and the expansion, which brought 3 new jobs, which they already admitted was too much work and would never do it again like that. I am sure now that they have less stress on their shoulders they can focus on creating diversity in content. I do not work with them obvi, so I cannot state this as a fact but as a hypothesis of course.

I'll use the analogy of the summoner. In this game, the summoner is a basic DoT class with a pet; on the DD forums, plenty of people have requested the class is more pet focused. When the team was building the summoner, they could have built it to be like the one from FFXI, and they didn't. The same for this game, FFXI is more open world than this, and version 1.0 had a more open world to it, yet they decided to go instanced. A part of it is probably the resource management issue, but a part of it is that open world content isn't fundamentally different than instanced combat. It gets just as stale and grindy.

Just because the game follows a certain used formula doesn't mean it can't have a more immersive open world. Just because of the formula, doesn't mean it can't have more interesting content than linear dungeons. Can anyone, anyone SUPER HONESTLY say they find all dungeons immersive and fun? That they login excited to do a dungeon for the dungeon itself and not for its rewards? Why would threads and comments pop up then if 100% of the community was happy to run linear dungeons? This is not the first thread about more immersive content/end game/ variety in the past few weeks. Rewards are nice, but even that reward won't justify running something that feels like a chore instead of leisure. I've seen people say how it just feels like a chore to login because you gotta do the same ol' same ol' in the past days. In game and in forums. I experience it myself too.

The two are not in conflict with each other, and I have experienced the same burnout. However, it's not as if more open world content will solve that boredom; it's just as static as instanced content. Using DAoC as an example, there's only so many times I can farm the dragon before it gets just as tedious.

Also, FFXI is not a sandbox game like Eve. FFXI is a theme park MMO. You don't control nor affect the world in any way, the devs always set you a path you had to walk in. There was instanced content and outer world content (just like FFXIV!). So what is this niche market FFXI takes part of exactly? I don't see how the FFXI 2.0 comment is related at all.

The comment is relevant because this thread, like so many others, is asking for elements that were found in previous MMOs to be added.
I said open world, not sandbox. It's been a long time since I played, but when I did, the only instanced fights were BCNMs and various story fights. Everything else was open world.

We are not asking for FFXIV to be FFXI 2.0. FFXIV has already a lot of diferent components and plays way different. People wanted to have a faster battle system? Check. People didn't want to wait hours for people to form a party? Check. People wanted to have to travel less on foot? Check. People wanted crafting to be accessible? Check. (at least at the start it was. yes red scripts, i know, lets not go into that please, too many threads about that already lol) People wanted balance and no claim system because they don't like competition? Check. People wanted equality for all types of players in terms of gear? Check. How much watered down do people want this game to be?! This is why it feels bland. We are suggesting for more immersive and fun meaningful content, stuff that FFXI did right, to name examples. FFXIV though having used the WoW formula, is not WoW and it should not have to be. FFXIV should be its own game. We care about the game which is why we'd like to see it flourish and not let it get stuck in the "just another WoW like game". We are not asking for super hardcore content, we are asking for more interesting, less linear content! In what possible negative way would that affect the game? How would that make it less successful?

You're not the first person to gripe against some of those issues, but seriously, the MMO market has changed since the days of EQ and FFXI. You say it's watered down, yet consistently, people ask for those items. No one has to use the DF or a flying mount, and yet, people do. People complain about when hunts are "pulled early". The playerbase has asked for those items. Give some examples of that "immersive" content that FFXI did right, because I strongly suspect those glasses aren't as rosy as you may think. Immersion tends to wear off after a bit.

If SE wants this game to be a stale and bland then that is their choice and people with a similar mindset as the ones asking for more interesting content can just unsub. But let's be honest, would this game REALLY survive on the same linear, non interesting, content for years? WoW already had its prime and was released a long time ago for it to keep a (now declining) playerbase. However, this is a different time, games cannot just rely on the same formula and stay afloat. FFXIV has an advantage because it's a well known, big, famous franchise. Would the game have survived on its own without the name FF behind it and with the linear content we have now?

The FF brand is strong enough to attract players, but if you think that people are only staying because it's an FF game, I'd have to disagree. However, more open world content will not solve the grind.

By the way, all those games are online. They are virtual worlds. How exactly is FFXIV more of an online game than the others?

For the same reason this post exists, the immersion in the non instanced world is not as good as those other games. Once you finish the MSQ, you could sit in housing all day and just queue up for dungeons. You'd have to leave for gear, but there is no need to do hunts.

[Tyla_Esmeraude]

snip

You probably didn't play FFXI for long then. FFXI had a lot of instanced content on top of BCNMs and story quests: Nyzul, Salvage, Assault, Dynamis, Limbus, Einherjar, Abyssea, Skirmish, Meeble Burrows.

I am not specifically talking about outer world content, but also more interesting content that happens to be instanced, too. Just because this was instanced doesn't mean it had to be boring and linear like the current dungeons and content we have.

People asked to ease the game, not to make the game boring and stale. Who would say no to variety in content design? Again, stuff I'm talking about happens to be instanced, so how does this relate to people not wanting outer world content according to you? Yes the game is watered down enough and it's gonna stay that way, but that is completely different from an stale and boring game. Nothing prevents it to become better overtime. Content that FFXI did right? All of the above plus more: Voidwatch, ZNMS, SCNMS, what about those NMs in the past that if you claimed, they would suck you in and transport you into an instanced dungeon that was actually fun to do? What about Besieged?

They couldnt make summoner as people asked for because they had already changed the gameplay style. I bet you they tried to look for ways to implement it and unfortunately, that was the only solution they could come up with if they were to keep the gameplay style. I am sure people didn't ask specifically for summoner to be the way it is right now. It's what worked on this game because of the battle style.

Again, no one is saying that outer world content is the holy grail (though personally, it makes the world more alive), nor are we discussing open world content specifically at the moment. We are specifically talking about *instanced* content that is not completely linear and have different objectives, mechanics, etc other than Kill trash> kill Boss> End. Read OP's post carefully. You probably misunderstood my post as well. When I said more interesting content other than linear dungeons I was mostly refering to instanced stuff. I only mentioned open world because you were talking about it. Open world would be the cherry on top of the cake, though.

[fortuona]

even small things like randomizing mob locations within a dungeon, changing up types of mobs in trash packs, and randomizing the order of some boss attacks would go a long way to alleviate the boredom of repeating the dungeon you've just entered for the 100th time.