Naoki Yoshida recent interview

[Delily]

They are in decline due to clueless developers like Yoshida. They've been harping the death of MMORPGs long before Yoshida ever showed up and they aren't dead. The current reality is that we have hundreds of thousands of players wanting some game they can enjoy but are forced to play WoW-MMO after WoW-MMO. These devs have been killing the market for years. Yoshida is working for a company that only knows how to make single player games or games with optional multiplayer. I mean, he was surprised that hunts, something implemented due to player request, "even worked." He doesn't have a clue how to make a long lasting MMORPG.

So, calling Yoshida clueless is like saying a Iggy Azala can't sing. People are watching her videos on YouTube, and not yours. Similarly, people are playing Yoshida's game, and not yours. You may disagree with this design decisions, but in the end, he has a successful product on his hand. Where's your MMORPG?

Claiming Square only knows how to make single player games with optional offline comments ignores the fact that FFXI has been running for a decade now; in fact, it was released 2 years before WoW. A little known fact is that have a second MMORPG, Dragon Quest, that was released in 2012. Again, where's your MMORPG?

Third, claiming the player base wants something other than WoW is not accurate. I can think of 2 games that are distinct from WoW that have not done well, those being Wildstar and the Secret World. I'll also throw in Warhammer Online, where Mythic basically said "we're the alternative to WoW" and the game flopped. The 2 most successful post WoW MMOS are LoTRO and FFXIV, both of which have refined the WoW model. LoTRO is F2P, true, but it's still a success. Even more, you yourself have a level 60 monk, clearly you dislike FFXIV.

You're entitled to your opinions as everyone else, but claiming Yoshida and Square aren't qualified to speak on MMOs when they have a proven track record is ridiculous.

by copy catting the general structure of a game long since in decline and slapping a few things from GW2 on as an afterthought. Yes, he is skilled as a game developer, and he saved the company by creating a game that managed to sell over 4 million copies. There is a big difference between the genre being stagnant and being in decline. Wild Star's structure is WoW with action combat, although the housing is uniquely its own. ArcheAge is something I have no experience with and will not comment on. The forces at play in the MMORPG market obscure whether it is truly a niche genre because it has been overrun with copy cats created by devs who haven't done their sociology homework.

He took a model that has proven success, and added his own design decisions to it. He was not out to evolve the genre, he was out to save a failing product. You also left out the concept of a genre being mature.

Compare the life of older MMORPGs to these new age ones. The developers for those games, especially Ultima Online, claim to have delved into sociology to learn more about human interaction before building their games. Considering the features implemented in today's MMORPGs are far less social than those of earlier ones, I sincerely doubt the devs for all those WoW clones really did any homework.

The key word is they claim. Maybe Garriot did work with Bartle when making UO, but in the end, that was built in a different market space. Markets evolve over time.

[Risvertasashi]

-snip-

TSW is another excellent example. No classes, no levels, extremely customizable character progression, quests like no other MMO has...

I'm very glad TSW exists, it's truly different and really quite an experience to play. But... it's also been on life support pretty much since launch. Bugs that have been there since release. Content coming 2 years late and in many cases not coming at all...

It just doesn't have population, doesn't have budget, etc etc. I'd still like to see someone successfully reinvent the genre, but, yeah. Most people just don't find alternatives interesting and certainly aren't willing to pay for them.

Minor nitpick about EVE online: It's not really a space sim at all. Its physics model actually resembles that of submarines/being underwater. But mostly it doesn't actually simulate much at all.

[Fendred]

When I said Yoshida was clueless, I did not mean that he was clueless in terms of being a developer. I meant he was clueless as to the true state of the genre because its literally been stagnant for more than half a decade. The only thing certain from the current state of affairs is that making MMORPGs like giant lobby games doesn't work. That's a far cry from saying MMORPGs are in decline or dying. Definitely the lobby based ones are in decline, but its impossible to say that of all MMORPGs in general because no AAA developer has honestly attempted to dust off and refine mechanics from things like Star Wars Galaxies or EVE online for over a decade. And a little history lesson: Those didn't die off because of lack of popularity. They died off because World of Warcraft blinded every AAA publisher with dollar signs, so they were relegated to the dust bins of history before their time had truly passed.

Unfortunately, we're in a state of emergency because if someone doesn't try to polish those old mechanics soon, everyone who originally worked on those games will be in retirement or dead.

[Delily]

Actually, the belief that WoW killed off SWG isn't accurate. In fact one of the lead developers of that game refuted that in his blog. He said the numbers started dropping with the addition of holocrons.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

Actually, the belief that WoW killed off SWG isn't accurate. In fact one of the lead developers of that game refuted that in his blog. He said the numbers started dropping with the addition of holocrons.

It lost half its player-base when CU was released, making the game a World of Warcraft game as well.

When I said Yoshida was clueless, I did not mean that he was clueless in terms of being a developer. I meant he was clueless as to the true state of the genre because its literally been stagnant for more than half a decade. The only thing certain from the current state of affairs is that making MMORPGs like giant lobby games doesn't work. That's a far cry from saying MMORPGs are in decline or dying. Definitely the lobby based ones are in decline, but its impossible to say that of all MMORPGs in general because no AAA developer has honestly attempted to dust off and refine mechanics from things like Star Wars Galaxies or EVE online for over a decade. And a little history lesson: Those didn't die off because of lack of popularity. They died off because World of Warcraft blinded every AAA publisher with dollar signs, so they were relegated to the dust bins of history before their time had truly passed.

Unfortunately, we're in a state of emergency because if someone doesn't try to polish those old mechanics soon, everyone who originally worked on those games will be in retirement or dead.

Yes, I really don't think he was around for the older MMOs like SWG. He just has no experience with them, which many developers these days do not. Which is why you are correct.

However, Yoshida IS correct in saying that the current genre, what people percieve as an MMO is dying. However, that is because I don't think he knows about the older ones. He thinks its been polished to death, when it has not.

[Arixtotle]

... by copy catting the general structure of a game long since in decline and slapping a few things from GW2 on as an afterthought.

Having played both games I can assure you there are many, many, many things in FFXIV that are not in either.

[Delily]

Full answer, the constant claiming that WoW killed the genre reminds me of people who claimed that Microsoft killed Apple. The only response is, to quote Jobs, "People need to stop thinking that in order for Apple to succeed, Micrrosoft must fail". It's not true; WoW and the iPhone show that a superior product can overtake and redefine a market. There were MMOs before WoW, and there were smart phones before the iPhone. Blizzard and Apple executed their products' launches successfully, which is something most people don't understand. They didn't just release some blockbuster, the did research on what the current products are, what people don't like, what people like, and they experimented with a few keys ideas in previous products (Warcraft 3 and the iPod).

If you actual talk to the people involved in games like TSW, Wildstar, Warhammer Online, etc, they will give you the actual reasons these products failed, and they will always be internal decisions. Only a poor developer will point to the success of another product as the reason their's failed.

[Delily]

It lost half its player-base when CU was released, making the game a World of Warcraft game as well.

No, this is wrong. Here's a link to Raph Koster's blog. Some direct quotes from it:

"WoW didn’t kill SWG. In fact, SWG lost less users to WoW than any other SOE game. (This makes sense — it was the least like WoW, after all). It did lose some of its conversion rate — probably something we can credit to WoW’s buttery smooth experience."

http://www.raphkoster.com/2015/04/27...galaxies-fail/

There's another link out there some where were another developer basically said that until they released holocrons, they had steady growth rate. Once they released holocrons, people started leaving.

Yes, I really don't think he was around for the older MMOs like SWG. He just has no experience with them, which many developers these days do not. Which is why you are correct.

However, Yoshida IS correct in saying that the current genre, what people percieve as an MMO is dying. However, that is because I don't think he knows about the older ones. He thinks its been polished to death, when it has not.

Nope. According to Wikipedia, "Yoshida drew some inspiration from his long-lasting enthusiasm for MMORPGs, having played such titles as Ultima Online, EverQuest, Dark Age of Camelot, World of Warcraft, Warhammer Online, Rift, Star Wars: The Old Republic and Guild Wars 2."

Sauce: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naoki_Yoshida

We can sit here and debate this all day long, but Yoshida is the producer for FFXIV for a reason.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

Did you actually play the game? Yes, players did start dropping off when Holocrons came out very slowly, however when CU was released HALF the playerbase up and left.

Also.. Ultima Online, Everquest, DAOC, WOW, WHO, SW:TOR are all very themepark related games. None of them are even close to what SWG:Pre-CU was.

SWG lacked content but its strength was all the content it has is extremely replayable. The Holocrons were not much content. However instead of adding more content and things to do. THEY changed the entire game.

It's your word versus people who were intimately involved in the product, but no, I never played it, I can only relay what people say. However, the bold part is important, because that is the number 1 sign an MMO is in death throes. The reason Yoshida pulled it off is that he shut down the game and basically launched a completely new one. He didn't change it in flight.

That was not directly what they stated. You took something out of context in an argument. They simply started it started losing playerbase when holocrons came out. It was a long time, almost a year and a half with little to no content being added to the game. OF COURSE THEY WOULD START LOSING PLAYERS!

Then, instead of content being added to the game they learn that they are taking everyones hard work and making it WORTHLESS. When CU came out:

EVERY ITEM IN THE GAME BECAME WORTHLESS, they redid the game. They pretty much removed it from the game.

Imagine grinding for months for Dreadwyrm gear, being the best in the game and the next day they change the game into a facebook game and Dreadwyrm armor is not only given away, but worthless.

Now imagine some of those pieces of gear, not only being worthless but ALSO deleted, removed from the game because its a new game.

[Delily]

Did you actually play the game? Yes, players did start dropping off when Holocrons came out very slowly, however when CU was released HALF the playerbase up and left.

Also.. Ultima Online, Everquest, DAOC, WOW, WHO, SW:TOR are all very themepark related games. None of them are even close to what SWG:Pre-CU was.

SWG lacked content but its strength was all the content it has is extremely replayable. The Holocrons were not much content. However instead of adding more content and things to do. THEY changed the entire game.

It's your word versus people who were intimately involved in the product, but no, I never played it, I can only relay what people say. However, the bold part is important, because that is the number 1 sign an MMO is in death throes. The reason Yoshida pulled it off is that he shut down the game and basically launched a completely new one. He didn't change it in flight.