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  1. #1
    Player
    Boocraft's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Posts
    61
    Character
    Gladiator Boocraft
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Ninja Lv 60

    Why are duties insane hard?

    Doing the limitless blue (hard)

    Can't even continue through the story because the wipes are next level. Every group votes to abandon. Why did they make the main scenario clear duties so difficult for newbies?

    To be clear... this place is easy. But for some reason people die before half way through the phase or the dps clear phases die too slow. Wish addons existed to see why the dps is low.

    I know people are against it. But why should I be stuck on my main scenario quest for an entire day because a few people don't know how to play their job correctly after 50+ levels or they can't move out of damage areas that explode after 4 seconds.

    I'm just saying they should make these places way easier. Only raids and actual dungeons that don't require main scenarios should be difficult.
    (4)

  2. #2
    Player
    reality_check's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    614
    Character
    Jesse Branford
    World
    Adamantoise
    Main Class
    Arcanist Lv 80
    Because we play a weird game where anyone is allowed to play any way they want without fear of being held to some sort of standard, yet encounters are meant to punish groups for players not meeting these empirically derived standards.

    Even some duty finder content highlights this bizarre paradox.

    You'll find a group that can do it eventually in duty finder though; just gotta be tenacious.
    (29)

  3. #3
    Player
    Bishop81's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    806
    Character
    Eldon Pierce
    World
    Behemoth
    Main Class
    Summoner Lv 60
    Quote Originally Posted by reality_check View Post
    Because we play a weird game where anyone is allowed to play any way they want without fear of being held to some sort of standard, yet encounters are meant to punish groups for players not meeting these empirically derived standards.

    Even some duty finder content highlights this bizarre paradox.

    You'll find a group that can do it eventually in duty finder though; just gotta be tenacious.
    This.

    It's OK to have "standards" that the players must meet. The problem is when other people are punished when a player doesn't meet said standard - instead of just the player himself/herself.
    (4)

  4. #4
    Player
    Allyrion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Ul'dah
    Posts
    1,231
    Character
    Allyrion Windwalker
    World
    Yojimbo
    Main Class
    Samurai Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Bishop81 View Post
    This.

    It's OK to have "standards" that the players must meet. The problem is when other people are punished when a player doesn't meet said standard - instead of just the player himself/herself.
    You need to have standards a group can meet, when doing group content.
    Those personal standards are there in the solo parts of the Main Story.

    But as soon as you reach group content, the dynamic is different.
    It's not about any of you individually anymore, it's about what you can accomplish together as group performing your roles optimally.

    So yea, there are standards and they've always been there.
    The only argument is that the game doesn't really teach you how to perform.
    But, at a certain point, you need to figure it out yourself and talk with the people around you to learn as well.

    So yea, doesn't matter if you're the best player in the world.
    The Boss faces the group as a whole and you can only carry so much.
    Some things might be solo-able at low level but most group content later on needs everyone to perform to a standard.

    What's wrong with that? It's still an MMO, so grouping is a part of it.
    Hence content is tuned and rewards the group, not the individual.
    (1)

  5. #5
    Player
    Bishop81's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    806
    Character
    Eldon Pierce
    World
    Behemoth
    Main Class
    Summoner Lv 60
    Quote Originally Posted by Allyrion View Post
    You need to have standards a group can meet, when doing group content.
    Those personal standards are there in the solo parts of the Main Story.

    But as soon as you reach group content, the dynamic is different.
    It's not about any of you individually anymore, it's about what you can accomplish together as group performing your roles optimally.

    So yea, there are standards and they've always been there.
    The only argument is that the game doesn't really teach you how to perform.
    But, at a certain point, you need to figure it out yourself and talk with the people around you to learn as well.

    So yea, doesn't matter if you're the best player in the world.
    The Boss faces the group as a whole and you can only carry so much.
    Some things might be solo-able at low level but most group content later on needs everyone to perform to a standard.

    What's wrong with that? It's still an MMO, so grouping is a part of it.
    Hence content is tuned and rewards the group, not the individual.
    There is no difference between group standard and individual standard. A group is made up of individuals. If all individuals are up to standard then the group is up to standard.

    The problems arise when you can't guarantee the "standard" of players in the likes of DF and when that player messes up, the whole group is punished for his failings.

    Overall, the root cause of all this toxicity and unhappiness is the interdependence of players where the entire group is punished for the failings of a few. So long as people are punished for the failings of others, there will be "elitism" and toxicity to deal with.

    PS: And no, it doesn't have to be like that. It's possible to have fun together without shackling everyone's fate together such that if one falls the rest falls with him/her.
    (0)

  6. #6
    Player
    Allyrion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Ul'dah
    Posts
    1,231
    Character
    Allyrion Windwalker
    World
    Yojimbo
    Main Class
    Samurai Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Bishop81 View Post
    There is no difference between group standard and individual standard. A group is made up of individuals. If all individuals are up to standard then the group is up to standard.

    The problems arise when you can't guarantee the "standard" of players in the likes of DF and when that player messes up, the whole group is punished for his failings.
    That's not entirely true.
    Certain encounters are test people individually (like Titan Ex), while others may test the group's ability to work together more (like Rav Ex).

    At the same time, even in the former case there's obviously a difference that an individual standard.
    That is, your fate is tied to the abilities of people next to you as well as your own capability.

    And yea, it doesn't need to be like that. But if group content is challenging that's how it has to be.
    There needs to be a pass fail, and if you can carry too much the whole idea of grouping becomes meaningless except as a glorified chat channel.

    People should help each other perform, and if that fails they should get some friends and work on it together.
    I'm okay with MSQ trials being casual and easy though.
    I'm just saying, I don't get why blame the system instead of rising to the challenge.

    And this challenge requires you to either get the group to a certain level of competence through communication, and if that doesn't work find people you can work it.
    That's part of the challenge, as well as the actual fight.
    (0)

  7. #7
    Player
    GrizzlyTank's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Posts
    1,714
    Character
    Livia Bloodletter
    World
    Phoenix
    Main Class
    Dancer Lv 100
    Last boss is ironically less difficult than Bismark Hard, which mainly means that it's poorly tuned.
    (3)

  8. #8
    Player
    Mikedizzy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    1,028
    Character
    Rain Arrows
    World
    Behemoth
    Main Class
    Bard Lv 60
    Some people that are attempting Bismark "normal" are still undergeared I found. But others are just not doing a good enough rotation to get through the fight. You were probably dying on the dps check on the two snakes right??? (whatever those damn things are) EX it gets even worse....I will cross my fingers for you.
    (0)

    Server: BEHEMOTH
    FC: CASCADIA
    Playing since Beta phase 3

  9. #9
    Player
    Aeyis's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    1,378
    Character
    Elinchayilani N'jala
    World
    Zodiark
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikedizzy View Post
    Some people that are attempting Bismark "normal" are still undergeared I found. But others are just not doing a good enough rotation to get through the fight. You were probably dying on the dps check on the two snakes right??? (whatever those damn things are) EX it gets even worse....I will cross my fingers for you.
    Thats what a friend of me told me. I told him I've wiped from just about everything in there the dozen orso times I helped people clear it.
    DF Bismarck = EX difficulty. (groups you get compared to the content your doing)
    (0)

  10. #10
    Player
    Boocraft's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Posts
    61
    Character
    Gladiator Boocraft
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Ninja Lv 60
    It's still ridiculous and shouldn't be like this. By far the most grindy MMO i've played so far and I played everything up to now.

    Why is the game grindy and have a main scenario that punishes you for playing with others that don't know what to do after 3.. 4... 5.. 6.. tries until everyone does abandon leave.
    (2)

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