Defilberating the Dead Horse

[Snugglebutt]

Yeah I dont know about you, but personally im getting real tired seeing these kinds of posts pop up.

And some of us are getting tired of seeing the extremely melodramatic and hyperbolic threads by others like your friend AnimaS who has been spamming hate threads across these forums on the subject. At least threads like this are more constructive and rational, we need more like this one and less like your friends popping up. Ones like this which actually debate the topic not solely rely on melodramatic propaganda.

The real reason in my opinion you hate threads like this is because it deflates your attempts at over-dramatization of the issues, a tactic used to try and make SE drastically alter the new systems when in reality SE are smart enough to not over-react like your friend AnimaS or others like yourself who are trying to his promote his actions. SE will make minor adjustments and slight balancing alterations until they are happy with the outcome like they always have done in the past and they will take their time to evaluate the situation instead of making knee jerk reactions to the hyperbole being spread around these forums by some.

[Snugglebutt]

-snip-

Thanks for a reasonable way you made your criticism and level headed approach to the issues, makes a change from the hyperbole and scaremongering going on currently on these forums by some. The one thing I specifically would say though overall in the sense it stood out to me more so was your second paragraph which seemed to rely on gear crafting, potions and food but there are other recipes that have been added that do not fall into only those categories. There are other things I might have a different opinion of than yourself in what you said but what I just said above is what stood out to me more so.

In the end however no matter how few recipes were added less than a week ago, those were just the foundation of a new system and vastly more will be added over the following weeks and months. The new systems will like you said also be further balanced and slight adjustments made over the coming weeks and months such as potential cap raise and lowering of material costs gained through scripts. Such adjustments always come after new content is released.

I also noticed people seem to have forgotten that unspoiled nodes had restrictions too on how often could farm them for the non-marketable and unsellable crafting materials 'especially' ones which required x amount of them to get your foragers, supra and other such gear. There has been a limitation on gearing up DoL/DoH even prior to this new system, a time restriction meant to slow down gearing progress. The new system is just an extension of that pre-existing principle.

SE have also made it know for quite some time they do not want crafters creating BiS DoW/DoM gear which undermines the reward gained from obtaining such gear through raids and they also do not want people buying BiS gear to shortcut their way to highest end raid content, many raiders agreed with this stance and complained about BiS crafting prior to 3.0. So what SE has given crafters is mid range gear which is inline with that, the only current issue with the gear is the price of mats and the current script cap but those only need minor changes to become more balanced.

My opinion is that some people here are making mountains out of molehills, too many here using hyperbolic and extremely melodramatic statements including some posting logical fallacies in an effort to vent their frustrations and puff up their arguments so it is good when someone like yourself comes on with a more reasonable and rational debate on the subject. Yes there are issues with the current system but no they are not in reality major issues that would require scrapping the new systems for example or removal of the caps entirely, SE just needs to make some minor adjustments which they will do over time. As for crafting BiS DoW/DoM gear, sorry but that is just not going to happen and SE have made that pretty clear for quite some time.

[Kenji1134]

The best analogy would be that this is the crafter equivalent of Alex Savage, but with more grinding.

As someone else has already put it, the Red Scrip Crafting System, if converted to an Combat Equivalent, would be that you had to grind out some specific dungeon 20 times to have the privilege of stepping into Alex Savage.
However there is a small caveat, your Alex Savage Entry Privilege is only good for 1 wipe... One. You can stay in the zone as long as you want, no 90 minute timer, but if everyone in the party dies, you are booted out of the zone.
Oh yeah, and you are only allowed 1.5 Alex Savage Entry Privileges per week.

Do you see how this can seem un-fun?

[Kabooa]

The best analogy would be that this is the crafter equivalent of Alex Savage, but with more grinding.

As someone else has already put it, the Red Scrip Crafting System, if converted to an Combat Equivalent, would be that you had to grind out some specific dungeon 20 times to have the privilege of stepping into Alex Savage.
However there is a small caveat, your Alex Savage Entry Privilege is only good for 1 wipe... One. You can stay in the zone as long as you want, no 90 minute timer, but if everyone in the party dies, you are booted out of the zone.
Oh yeah, and you are only allowed 1.5 Alex Savage Entry Privileges per week.

Do you see how this can seem un-fun?

Does Reclaim not work on the new crafts? That'd certainly be an ass move.

[Snugglebutt]

Does Reclaim not work on the new crafts? That'd certainly be an ass move.

From what I have read reclaim does work on them though it is debatable whether worth using since the skill itself is used to compensate for bad luck and mistakes in your rotations so is very situational.

[Magistrella]

The "its x lvl behind" doesnt count.

Crafts have always been at the same level as the uncapped tomestones - nothing new there

difference: No daily cap and tremendous efforts to get materials needed to make it. You could use excess tomes to get the materials. ALWAYS and due to that the supply was high and the prices moderate

Now? Sorry if i dont break out in a crazy laughter here. You need 6(!) red crafter scrip items for a body, thats 300 scrip or items worth 2-4m if you'd sold them instead of traded them in. Then add the 120(!) favor items you need - 60 miner 60 botanist - to get those items. With an average of 4.5 per favor youll end up running around 6-7 hours getting those. So far not a single one of those has sold on the MB b/c they are all 500k+ - even tho thats too high around 100k should be reasonable. Still this puts you at 12million worth of favor items.

To sum it up:


300 Red crafter Scrips
270 Red gathering Scrips
around 12 hours playtime crafting items for scrip and gathering items for scrip.
Items worth 2-4 Million traded in for scrip - items reasonable worth 12 million for a total of 14-16m

and hey, thats ONE body piece.

And NO - not a single piece of equipment is on the MB on a quite populated server yet. Compared to 2.x where you had plenty sold in the first 2-4 days this just shows how much this new system sucks.

[Kabooa]

Snip

Literally nothing here flows together.

Uncapped tomes vs crafting gear, crafting gear wins hands down. This was never a question. It's comparable to i200. i210 90% of the playerbase will not be fully slotted in anytime soon, so as far as the foreseeable future, it's mostly a moot point.

Prices were moderate? Not at the start. You're kidding yourself if you thought prices were 'reasonable' within the first week of a new iLevel patch.

You have 7 days (5 this week) to get a good craft for redscrips as a crafter. I hammered mine out in an hour.
You have 7 days (5 this week) to, at 16 scrips per attempt, make 28-29 5 minute collectible trips. For a single gatherer profession. Assuming you play 2 hours a day, you should get 3-4 gathers per day, between which you can use Favors (15 minutes is about 6 game hours) to gather if you so choose. This leaves you with 2 spare tokens you can use however you wish, or 9 if you choose to use none at all.

It's -your- prerogative to buy or sell a 15million chest piece, just as it's -mine- to buy the far more cost efficient one from scrips and use my gatherer tokens to sell for gil.

Your last statement? Subjective drivel. i70 wasn't flying off the shelves when literally -everyone- was charging more gil than the game gave you up to level 50 for them, and by the other tiers, there were enough alternatives that crafted gear was seen as it was; A luxury for those who care about server/world first, and glamours for the rest of us.

[Aeyis]

Your last statement? Subjective drivel.

That sums the origin of this thread up very well.
Is there truly a need to make a new thread, when theres plenty of threads around with all the arguments that completely burn your strawmen to ash?

Guess you just aren't as rich as you think you are. The game, 2.0, gave you around 300k worth of gil by the time you hit 50. Crafted gear on gilgamesh was around 450-500k for High quality.

But don't worry; The richer folk back then could afford it, just like the rich folk now can afford it.

No they can't. For starters, they would need something to buy. Do you see anything up for sale on the mb?
By the way, 300k in a post talking about rich? I don't even...

[scarebearz]

Nobody is going to be selling a HQ i180 chest for 15mil anytime soon, that would be very very cheap for the scrips/mats/risk/cost/time involved.

I suspect you'll be looking at atleast 30mil and maybe closer to 50mil. If anyone makes one anytime soon, as it's also a risk making it, as I cant see many/any being daft enough to buy it at that.

Your last statement? Subjective drivel. i70 wasn't flying off the shelves when literally -everyone- was charging more gil than the game gave you up to level 50 for them, and by the other tiers, there were enough alternatives that crafted gear was seen as it was; A luxury for those who care about server/world first, and glamours for the rest of us.

I sold a lot of i70, i90 and i110 gear very soon after they were possible to craft.

They sold well.

The mats and items were expencive back then, but they were somewhat affordable to the richer players.

The current mats/items are not.

[Kabooa]

I sold a lot of i70, i90 and i110 gear very soon after they were possible to craft.

They sold well.

The mats and items were expencive back then, but they were somewhat affordable to the richer players.

The current mats/items are not.

Guess you just aren't as rich as you think you are. The game, 2.0, gave you around 300k worth of gil by the time you hit 50. Crafted gear on gilgamesh was around 450-500k for High quality.

But don't worry; The richer folk back then could afford it, just like the rich folk now can afford it.