AST Sect Theory

[Zholi]

I've been as active as I have here because without me present to at least defend my position, no one would have bothered to look at it or speak up for it.

You need to ask yourself why that is.

[Apeiron]

The problem with pushing those duties off onto your co-healer, as I see it, is that you don't actually have much of an effect on the power of their heals. I'd be fine being second fiddle to my co-healer if I had the tools to make them better at their job. If, for example, A. benefic buffed heals received for one of the Sects so that the WHM/SCH had an easier time being the "Main healer", that'd support that style of play. As is, you're just pushing off more responsibility to your co-healer for more or less no gain.

Hrm. Maybe I was thinking of how a SCH would lead with Succor, an AST could take that as their cue to pop Helios as needed. You make a valid point on us not having much of an effect on the co-healer's healing. I would like to know how much we do effect, however.

Yes, you are bringing Diurnal in part for their regens since they stack with all effects aside from the same from another Diurnal AST. It's a given that AST is neither a full-powered WHM nor a full-powered SCH, but the Diurnal HoT remains effective in all but one healer pairing.

As for 4-man content (any content, really), currently there aren't many reasons to take either AST over WHM or SCH, but we have enough threads about that.

I'm still baffled as to why anyone should want to pair a Nocturnal AST with a SCH only to cast very slightly stronger versions of Cure, Cure II, and Medica when you can bring Diurnal to do the same at a tiny bit less potency but with greater potency/mp over time with applied HoTs.

Haven't had the chance to test Noct CU with Soil, but that's because both are nearly useless except in progression. Even if they do stack, the only way anyone will care is if this allows a team to survive a HP check that is the only thing gating their progress.

There might really be no reason to do it [pairing Noctast with SCH], but we don't really have people trying it out to see what the weaknesses really are. People say that the Nocturnal Sect is lacking because of the shields, and that the 5% to healing isn't enough, so than what is going right with the class? I'm asking people to dig a little harder with Nocturnal Sect. I'm not asking people to accept a new meta -- that would come after enough data has been gathered to justify it, if it exists.

But what comes with playing the Noctast wouldn't be slightly stronger cures. If you've popped essential dignity already, and someone's about to eat a mechanic that'll get them too low for HoT to take effect, as the Noctast you're fully capable of shielding and healing them quicker to get them out of danger. If you're running with a SCH you can leave the rest of the healing to the fairy who doesn't consume MP to heal people, and go about keeping everyone else up. It's a hypothetical, I know, but it's still an option on the table.

Please let me know what you find out about CU, I'd appreciate it

You need to ask yourself why that is.

I have, actually. My theory -- I guess I should call it hypothesis now, not theory -- doesn't look favorable at first glance (look at how many of you showed up just to tell me how silly my idea even was) and takes AST away from a play style they've become accustomed to as it's familiar, effective, and doesn't have abilities which might step on toes of other players.

From 30-50 we're stuck with Diurnal Sect, and we get pretty good compensating for its weaknesses. It's not perfect, we know, but it's all we have and we love it. It introduces us to our job, makes us happy with how it looks. For anyone who's leveled WHM, it's familiar and a fun change of pace -- hell, probably challenging us to remember mechanics and think a bit a head (not too much as we've run some of the content to death) or figure out who gets what buff from our cards so that we're not completely bored. We know we can rely on our regens to help keep us afloat, but they're not going to carry us. Our HoT do their job, and we keep the party alive without too much worry about our MP. When we can finally run 8-man content at 50 (CT, Coil, Primals) we can stack all of the regen with WHM, and we watch mechanics do their damage. The SCH shields before big damage, and between the lull in mechanics that happens, and the shields, we watch as our HoT slowly - but surely - help our party recover. It feels great.

But then we get Nocturnal Sect as well, and we're not too certain where it fits. Are we a SCH? No, that much becomes obvious really fast. No more a SCH than we are a WHM. The first time we notice our shields don't crit for a bonus shield, we're spamming our shields trying to keep our party alive fruitlessly. We're also trying to juggle our buffs, remember who's in our party and what they can use, trying to determine if we want to use, hold, or royal road (it gets easier because we've gotten used to it) and doing it all without a pet. It's not easy and we don't like it. We can't just set heals and forget. With our HoT we can wait until our party members are somewhere in their health that we don't like, and know we're not about to rush to have to beat mechanics or autoattacks. We've still got our basic heals, and they're even slightly improved. They've got a nifty shield now, but that excitement is ruined in the first pairing we make with a SCH and we accidentally overwrite their shields, trying to be the good co-healer and save our buddy some time and MP. But our basic kit is still the same, and we can still use all of the old tricks, we've now just got the help of two other healers.

I doubt a good many people would have bothered with this theory, and that's because how do you go about convincing an entire community that is dead-set on the mentality that Diurnal is the only option to take when paired with a SCH?

Short answer: you don't. You don't try and convince them. A lot of people probably would have taken to this thread to sway the masses of a new meta. I'm not. I have a very simple goal that I'm asking for help with: test it, see if it works, and if it doesn't (when it doesn't, if you prefer) you come back and say, "Sorry man, it doesn't work." I'll ask a few more questions, you'll answer to the best of your ability, and then we keep going with a more constructive conversation than we'd might if we were debating.

That's what I want. I want a discussion, and a damn good one, too. Not a complaint thread; not a why I love this job thread; not a this is how SE should fix the job thread. I want a we tried everything, and these are the limitations, the weaknesses, and new ways to handle certain things thread. I want us to recognize strengths as well as shortcomings, encourage others to speak up, and not devolve into senseless bickering of opinionated trash.

I've tried to avoid personal attacks, attacks on people's intelligence, or other similar pointless and petty comments. If I've failed in this over the course of these last 10 pages, in any way, I apologize. But I want the discussion to keep going, even if most of you are ready to let it die.