AST Sect Theory

[Apeiron]

Suggesting that AST use Nocturnal with SCH just for the 5% healing increase (while ignoring Aspected Benefic/Helios), rather than Diurnal, is complete nonsense. Dirunal provides far more overall healing through Aspected Benefic/Helios compared to Nocturnal using Benefic I/II and Helios. Yes, Noct Sect healing is more upfront, but the overall healing done will be far, far lower compared to Diurnal and much less MP-Efficient.

No testing is even needed if that's what you're suggesting.

Not sure where it comes in as nonsensical. Out of curiosity I went to check out some Alexander Savage videos, just to see what types of damage a healer would be dealing with (does this make me an expert suddenly? No, but it's what I've got to work with until I unlock Alexander and have an AST at 60 + static or FC). So far with A1S it looks like most of the damage is single target, directed at tanks, which wouldn't require HoT when most of the damage incoming is greater than what can be healed. Might make it easier, what with 750 HoT for 18sec (this is using Dyvid's 500 + half again for A. Helios) but when the damage is 2k+... why wouldn't it be better to have the improved healing potency? The combined HoT for those 18sec is fantastic, but not too far off from Divine Wind's 700 over 21 seconds.

I get where people find Diurnal MP efficient, but I haven't had MP problems with Nocturnal. Then again, those might be unrelated. For clarity, though, because maybe I've got the wrong idea about it, MP efficiency is the state of your MP pool coming out of a fight? Or is it better defined by the cost of spells per potency?

[GideonHighmourn]

snip

Again, you are completely ignoring the bonus healing offered by Diurnal's HoTs in favor of upfront healing with lower overall output. Not to mention Aspected Benefic is also instant cast and Benefic II is not; so the "upfront" heal of Nocturnal is even less so, since it's back loaded with a cast time compared to Dirunal's Aspected Benefic.

Dirunal > Nocturnal for healing throughput and efficiency; it doesn't need to be tested. Diurnal still has access to Benefic II, so you can easily stack HoTs and Benefic II if needed; Benefic II isn't exclusive to Nocturnal, and even while more potent in Nocturnal, isn't worth forgoing healing tics for when paired with SCH (which is what you're suggesting). The HoT's that Diurnal offer more than make up for the 5% difference.

You also lose out on CU's healing ticks, which while situational, are usually far more preferred to 10% DMG reduction. Also combined with CO + Dirunal HoTs, Dirunal pulls way ahead of Nocturnal for MP efficiency.

[Apeiron]

Again, you are completely ignoring the bonus healing offered by Diurnal's HoTs in favor of upfront healing with lower overall output. Not to mention Aspected Benefic is also instant cast and Benefic II is not; so the "upfront" heal of Nocturnal is even less so, since it's back loaded with a cast time compared to Dirunal's Aspected Benefic.

Dirunal > Nocturnal for healing throughput and efficiency; it doesn't need to be tested. Diurnal still has access to Benefic II, so you can easily stack HoTs and Benefic II if needed; Benefic II isn't exclusive to Nocturnal, and even while more potent in Nocturnal, isn't worth forgoing healing tics for when paired with SCH (which is what you're suggesting). The HoT's that Diurnal offer more than make up for the 5% difference.

You also lose out on CU's healing ticks, which while situational, are usually far more preferred to 10% DMG reduction. Also combined with CO + Dirunal HoTs, Dirunal pulls way ahead of Nocturnal for MP efficiency.

What bonus healing? If the HoT doesn't place the party in a better state with incoming damage like the fairy or WHM HoT does, that's not bonus healing. At best that's dead-even and that's only acceptable because it doesn't hurt the party, but neither does it provide any real benefit.

A. Benefic is an instant cast in Diurnal at a potency of 190 + 100/18 seconds. If we run with Dyvid's numbers, we can substitute 100 potency for ~500 HP, and 190 potency for ~1,000 (leaning to the lower end). That places A. Benefic alone at a return of ~4,000 HP if no damage is being done. If damage for Alexander Savage is 2k at the low end, with spikes of upward or greater than 4k, A. Benefic isn't doing much. It isn't until you pair it with shields (adlo more than likely) Divine Wind, A. Helios, other regens, or more healing spells than should be necessary, that it helps get ahead. And most of that is to help keep one person up while others get a neat regen from A. Helios so that things aren't quite so "ogawdno". Helios will get your party up faster in Nocturnal sect and should be considered more reliable than trying to stack resources for regen.

In Nocturnal, your basic healing spells that you focus on are more potent, and are better suited for single target which is where you'd be needed. You're not going to utilize A. Benefic for it's lower healing and greater cost for sub-standard shields unless you're with a WHM and you know there are mechanics which must be shield against. Benefic alone is twice the potency of A. Benefic when in Nocturnal, and there isn't a need to shield because, as every SCH likes to remind Noct AST, they can keep shields up.

I'm not attempting to ignore that Diurn and Noct have the same basic spells, but with weaker potencies and when paired with a SCH less regen to stack, it doesn't look to me as if the HoT really makes up for allowing the AST to stack its stronger healing potential with the SCH plenty strong healing kit.

I'm not sure if I want to dance around with CU atm, as I haven't yet gotten that level. I've been primarily arguing off of what I've already got, and asking for people to help fill in the missing bits until I'm at 60 running Alex.

[GideonHighmourn]

If the HoT doesn't place the party in a better state with incoming damage like the fairy or WHM HoT does, that's not bonus healing.

Your choice to ignore HoT healing/rolling from A. Benefic and A. Helios doesn't make it nonexistent; however, you refusal to acknowledge the benefit of rolling HoTs in exchange for +5% healing on three heals is ironic.

[AmiraHargal]

Probably already repeated this twice in other AST threads(there're so many of them XD), but how would you feel if Time Dilation effect in Nocturnal Sect is changed to 50% potency increase in existing buff(including shield, so 2000 damage shield from aspected benefic become 3000 damage shield after time dilation is applied) instead of current 15s increase in duration(which will still be used during diurnal)?(basically giving Enhanced buff effect instead of Extend buff like it is currently). Do you guys think that will improve Nocturnal Sect by a lot?

[Zholi]

Probably already repeated this twice in other AST threads(there're so many of them XD), but how would you feel if Time Dilation effect in Nocturnal Sect is changed to 50% potency increase in existing buff(including shield, so 2000 damage shield from aspected benefic become 3000 damage shield after time dilation is applied) instead of current 15s increase in duration(which will still be used during diurnal)?(basically giving Enhanced buff effect instead of Extend buff like it is currently). Do you guys think that will improve Nocturnal Sect by a lot?

No. Extending regen is more like a side effect of the CD, not the main reason you use it. The fact that extending shields provides no benefit is not the reason Nocturnal Sect sucks. And the CD is too long to even care about buffing shields with it.

[AmiraHargal]

Yes, it's the side effect, but with that time dilation effect, AST now have reliable mitigation against tankbuster move comparable to SCH. Also, since the buff will also apply to card buff, think of the best case scenario the mitigation will result from it(15%/22.5% reduction from bole + 150% shield from aspected benefic).

You are right about the long CD(more reason to use Spear on yourself!), but SCH double shield effect also happen randomly(crit) and can last as long without any crit from the mitigation, or is AST's Aspected Benefic base heal is that much weaker compared to SCH's Adlo?

If you're talking about lower healing throughput compared to Diurnal, than yes, overall healing throughput might still be weaker than Diurnal, but so is SCH's compared to WHM's, but SCH still have utility due to mitigation, which Nocturnal Sect is all about. Care to explain further why you think this won't improve much aside from the long CD?

Also, with time dilation changed, Celestial Opposition's effect should be changed to follow it in Nocturnal, which means stronger "Succor", another strong point of Nocturnal Sect compared to SCH(which still have loads of other utility such as 3 Lustrates, instant AOE, better MP management, etc.) albeit on a really long cooldown(2.5 min, which IMO should be rebalanced)

[Zholi]

Shields are pretty ephemeral buffs, and trying to buff a buff that in many situations can disappear in an instant is awfully fidgety. You get to blow a CD for the privilege of still having worse shields than SCH. You should only ever use time dilation on card buffs. Using it on the tank for a regen or shield is a complete waste. Yes, the tank may have a card buff, but you really want to avoid giving the tank cards the vast majority of the time, so this should be a very rare occurrence. And you still lack the passive healing ability every other healer has (WHM and Diurnal AST with regen, SCH with fairy).

[Apeiron]

Your choice to ignore HoT healing/rolling from A. Benefic and A. Helios doesn't make it nonexistent; however, you refusal to acknowledge the benefit of rolling HoTs in exchange for +5% healing on three heals is ironic.

I'm not ignoring it, or say it doesn't exist, I'm saying to get the most out of regens, they have to do a few things:
1) heal more than incoming damage to be an actual benefit, otherwise they're a lesser mitigation that can be replaced by shields, and you or your co-healer are forced to spam more healing spells to make up the difference than should be necessary.
2) not be used on a party member whose health is already topped off, if you have this scenario then your regens aren't being used and you have ticks being wasted. Again this doesn't necessarily hurt the party, but it doesn't benefit them either, and shouldn't be counted towards overall healing. Your party members don't need the healing at that point.

A. Benefic only gives you the full 790 potency overall per single target when it's allowed to function without damage ruining it because of shields, long pauses between damage, or in tandem with other (stronger) regens. When incoming damage is greater than each individual tick, it doesn't really help, and you have to use your benefic and benefic II just to ensure your party's HP doesn't go in the red. And that's not taking into account spike damage, or damage someone ate because they missed a cue.

In the time it takes to let A. Benefic work, how many other spells can you use from Noct Sect to get your party back up, while letting the fairy's regen do their thing for a greater bonus towards efficiency

In nocturnal your 2 benefics are a greater potency than your A. Benefic and bring people up quicker, allowing it to be more reliable. If we compare the two sects you should be using less resources to handle damage in nocturnal than in diurnal because you don't have to stack multiple regens to get a benefit out of your own regens. In nearly half the time with benefic alone, you can heal a greater amount per single target and have it cost less MP. In a scenario where AoE healing needs to be done, the cost is split between three healers. 1 that provides heals + shields (SCH), 1 that provides AoE healing, and 1 that provides healing and a HoT at the cost of a CD (Eos). Further divide the effort needed to bring each individual up with basic spells and allow for tricks like Synastry on tanks for half potency while the fairy does the rest, the SCH picks up whatever quick heals need to be done.

In the same scenario paired with a SCH, and AST in diurnal, you have 1 for heals + shields, 1 for 2 AoE healing HoT (and not very many per single target without it becoming MP taxing) and 1 for HoT with the same division of work and tricks, and you have your party using more resources to make up for the weak HoT you're stacking just to squeeze out a benefit.

From experience, you all know the regen stack to work and you claim it's easy, or the best, but then what's happening that when we stack Noct AST + SCH that makes it so difficult that no one even wants to be bothered with trying to make it work? It's not the lack of two skills when the AST kit still allows them to do plenty of other things when they're not required to shield.

[Cynfael]

I'm not sure which part is unclear when we discuss Diurnal healing vs. Nocturnal healing.

Regen effects allow you to heal more efficiently in any situation where you can allow the HoT to tick (which is frequently). Nocturnal's burst heal is technically more efficient since you spend the same MP for slightly greater upfront potency, but if you aren't allowing your HoTs to work for you in Diurnal, you're missing the advantage completely. Accounting for regen ticks can make the difference between needing to follow up with Benefic vs. Benefic II or even burning an ED.

There's absolutely no reason to run Noct with SCH when Diurnal allows you to set-and-forget healing to help free up both healers and decrease MP consumption for basic maintenance healing. Part of using regens effectively is knowing when to apply them and when you can trust them to work for you.