AST Sect Theory

[GideonHighmourn]

The SCH gets shield priority, while the AST assists with keeping HP up.

Which is why they are gimping themselves by NOT being in Dirunal Sect. You follow this by saying AST's shield are better, which they aren't. AST's AoE shields have a potency of 150 vs SCH's 150, it's NOT "twice the potency of Succor"; don't try to skew the numbers. And they DO overwrite SCH shields, whether they are stronger or not.

A. Helios also costs nearly 1.5x as much Benefic II with a lesser cure potency per single target. In the instances where people take too much damage, it'd be better to rely on SCH shield while the AST follows up with stronger Helios and Benefic or Benefic II to keep up with the damage, as you can cast benefic and benefic II quicker than you can wait on regens.

Again, you are arguing about abilities that aren't specific to NOCTURNAL SECT. Benefic II and Helios are BOTH available to Dirunal Sect. Yes, they are 5% stronger in Nocturnal, but that's not going to suddenly make Noct + SCH more effective than Dirunal + SCH, simply because you have all the complications that come with shield overwriting. Not to mention, Dirunal's HEALING with DoTs is far more powerful than Noct's shielding potential, which you have already suggested they not do (?).

There is nothing that AST (Nocturnal) + SCH can bring to the table that AST (Dirunal) + SCH can't do better with less effort/communication.

Are you are actually suggesting that AST goes Nocturnal with SCH simply because of the 5% bonus on Benefic I/II and Helios, while neglecting Aspected Helios/Benefic? Because that's what I'm starting to get from this. Diurnal offers far more HEALING POTENTIAL than Nocturnal can by using Aspected Benefic/Helios.

[Ninimo_Babamo]

It's been said a million times now. Please go test it for yourself, because we did ages ago. This is a completely fruitless topic.

[Apeiron]

Which is why they are gimping themselves by NOT being in Dirunal Sect. You follow this by saying AST's shield are better, which they aren't. AST's AoE shields have a potency of 150 vs SCH's 150, it's NOT "twice the potency of Succor"; don't try to skew the numbers. And they DO overwrite SCH shields, whether they are stronger or not.



Again, you are arguing about abilities that aren't specific to NOCTURNAL SECT. Benefic II and Helios are BOTH available to Dirunal Sect. Yes, they are 5% stronger in Nocturnal, but that's not going to suddenly make Noct + SCH more effective than Dirunal + SCH, simply because you have all the complications that come with shield overwriting. Not to mention, Dirunal's HEALING with DoTs is far more powerful than Noct's shielding potential, which you have already suggested they not do (?).

There is nothing that AST (Nocturnal) + SCH can bring to the table that AST (Dirunal) + SCH can't do better with less effort/communication.

Are you are actually suggesting that AST goes Nocturnal with SCH simply because of the 5% bonus on Benefic I/II and Helios, while neglecting Aspected Helios/Benefic? Because that's what I'm starting to get from this. Diurnal offers far more HEALING POTENTIAL than Nocturnal can by using Aspected Benefic/Helios.

The miscommunication comes from me not clarifying that I meant Helios, and your assumtion that I was referring to A. Helios -- which I already clarified earlier was weaker than Succor. I'm also not going to say they don't overwrite shields, because we all know they do. I'm not attempting to skewer numbers, please understand. I don't make any progress with my theory if I provide false numbers.

Now, yes, those skills are available to the AST in Diurnal, but they're also not as potent. It makes a differenece when you look at how the SCH is better off shielding, Divine Wind, and then healing with the AST alongside them than they are relying on regen. This is because that overall Divine Wind is going to do an overall better job of healing the group than A. Helios. Its duration is shorter, but has a higher consistant potency of 100. When I compared my SCH in the same gear as my AST, I found that Divine Wind was healing for twice as much as my A. Helios (surprise! or, well, not really :P).

There was more originally, but I seem to have made a mistake when I was editing.

It's been said a million times now. Please go test it for yourself, because we did ages ago. This is a completely fruitless topic.

I would love to. Sadly, I don't have a Static or FC to help me, and queues are so long for coil that it's almost impossible for me to get a full party during the weekdays.

[Dyvid]

Adloquium is a cure potency of 300
Succor is a cure potency of 150
Aspected Benefic is a cure potency of 199.5 (don't know if they round up or down)
Aspected Helios is a cure potency of 147
Physick is a cure potency of 400
Embrace is a cure potency of 300 (someone fact check me, please)
Benefic is a cure potency of 399
Benefic II is a cure potency of 651
(these are with Noct +5%)

If an AST is using AB or AH in Noct Sect for any reason other than emergencies where something has gone terribly, horribly wrong, they've done goofed. Meanwhile, they've got some very potent healing that they can do to keep the party up.

Got to make this brief. Did some numbers for you. Diu - Benefic II healed for 3600ish, Noct - Benefic II for 3900ish. Diu Aspected Benefic Regen is about 500ish a tick. So yes, front loaded Noct is doing more healing but when you add HoT into the mix, Diu overtakes the benefit in one tick. Noct does have uses though, mainly speed runs where you can add an extra buffer to the tank and not get hate from it but as a whole... Noct sucks and needs buff/change.

I would love to. Sadly, I don't have a Static or FC to help me, and queues are so long for coil that it's almost impossible for me to get a full party during the weekdays.

Well go level up to 60 then so you are on the same page as everyone else =P

[Apeiron]

See above reply to on clarifying the AoE healing.

[GideonHighmourn]

See above reply to on clarifying the AoE healing.

You responded to the same post, twice. Check my follow-up.

Are you are actually suggesting that AST goes Nocturnal with SCH simply because of the 5% bonus on Benefic I/II and Helios, while neglecting Aspected Helios/Benefic? Because that's what I'm starting to get from this. Diurnal offers far more HEALING POTENTIAL than Nocturnal can by using Aspected Benefic/Helios.

[Apeiron]

Mispost on my part. Was meaning to reply to your response.

[Cynfael]

I wasn't trying to say that Diurnal is only effective in recovery, but that it's effectiveness is dependent on the 50potency healing more than the damage someone is receiving. Comparatively, a SCH is better off using Eos's Whispering Dawn, shielding, and letting the AST help heal up than they are in letting them drop A. Helios.

Whispering Dawn 21sec 100pot/tick - 7 ticks = total potency of 700
A. Helios 30sec 140+50/tick - 10 ticks = total potency of 640

A. Helios also costs nearly 1.5x as much Benefic II with a lesser cure potency per single target. In the instances where people take too much damage, it'd be better to rely on SCH shield while the AST follows up with stronger Helios and Benefic or Benefic II to keep up with the damage, as you can cast benefic and benefic II quicker than you can wait on regens.

The problem with SCH+SCH is that they don't work effectively together because you have one SCH at any given time overwriting the other's shields in an attempt to either protect party members or or provide AoE healing. When paired with an AST, this is not the problem. The SCH gets shield priority, while the AST assists with keeping HP up. Their AoE has a potency of 304.5 (again I don't know if this is rounded up or down) compared to Succor which has a potency of 150 -- twice the potency of Succor, and without worrying about shields being overwritten.

I might be a little lost here, but I don't see why on earth you would take a Noct AST with a SCH following this logic. The Diurnal AST has a teeny-tiny bit less upfront potency in exchange for massively increased healing over time and MP efficiency before you even consider that CO and Time Dilation also happen to extend their HoT effects.

If you aren't bringing the Noct AST to provide shielding, you aren't bringing it at all. Diurnal beats it in every other way possible.

[Apeiron]

Got to make this brief. Did some numbers for you. Diu - Benefic II healed for 3600ish, Noct - Benefic II for 3900ish. Diu Aspected Benefic Regen is about 500ish a tick. So yes, front loaded Noct is doing more healing but when you add HoT into the mix, Diu overtakes the benefit in one tick. Noct does have uses though, mainly speed runs where you can add an extra buffer to the tank and not get hate from it but as a whole... Noct sucks and needs buff/change.

Well go level up to 60 then so you are on the same page as everyone else =P

Thanks for at least running numbers. Now, was this just with a training dummy or did you run this in content? I ask because the 500/tick is important if it's healing more than incoming damage. Otherwise we're par for the course, and that's only kind of okay.

You responded to the same post, twice. Check my follow-up.

Are you are actually suggesting that AST goes Nocturnal with SCH simply because of the 5% bonus on Benefic I/II and Helios, while neglecting Aspected Helios/Benefic? Because that's what I'm starting to get from this. Diurnal offers far more HEALING POTENTIAL than Nocturnal can by using Aspected Benefic/Helios.

I fixed my post, please look at it and reply as you see fit

I'm suggesting that the SCH is a powerhouse in it's own right, which we all acknowledge, and doesn't require a WHM or WHM fill-in to get through tougher content. The +5% to healing potency means that the AST adds 304.5 AoE healing to the SCH 150 + shields. That instead of a 400 potency heal + 300 potency heals from fairy, the AST assists with benefic at 399 potency or benefic II at 651. Diurnal only offers stronger healing potential if there isn't a greater amount of incoming damage than the HoT can cover. That is what I'm suggesting.

[GideonHighmourn]

snip

Suggesting that AST use Nocturnal with SCH just for the 5% healing increase (while ignoring Aspected Benefic/Helios), rather than Diurnal, is complete nonsense. Dirunal provides far more overall healing through Aspected Benefic/Helios compared to Nocturnal using Benefic I/II and Helios. Yes, Noct Sect healing is more upfront, but the overall healing done will be far, far lower compared to Diurnal and much less MP-Efficient.

No testing is even needed if that's what you're suggesting.