AST Sect Theory

[Cynfael]

The reason you don't see people jumping to test this theory with AST is because we all feel that we've been-there-done-that with the existing healer classes.

I really don't understand how SCH+Noct AST healing is supposed to be anything but either comparable or worse than SCH+SCH in the past, except with the added annoyance of having to be concerned with Galvanize and Nocturnal Field effects overwriting each other without regard to strength.

Now, with SCH's added burst AoE heal capability, the comparison is even weaker since Indom and ET+Succor allow SCHs to provide Medica-style AoE healing to fill the gap that the AST of either Sect would otherwise fill with (unaspected) Helios.

If we seriously consider that the Noct AST can provide healing and shielding coverage while the SCH does something else entirely, like focusing on DPS or being too far removed from the party to effectively heal everyone, sure, that's fine. However, a Diurnal AST will sustain heals far more efficiently over a longer period, and Noct shields aren't so powerful that they are likely to prevent a wipe through sheer mitigation (whereas a partner SCH could at least Deploy an Adlo to mitigate a deadly raid buster).

I will play with Noct in these situations more when I get the opportunity, but I'll be very surprised and pleased if the result is somehow different.

[Cynfael]

Imo
Any decent ast with a brain will tell u
- Ast + sch =\= automatic dirunial sect
- ast + whm =\= automatic noct sect
You have to assess party and what instance ur doing.
I go noct always on rav ex as my noct aspected benefic really helps ease off the tank busting moves. Having the sch try to shield before tht buster is like so ur gonna hard cast while party is getting hit with atma linga lol. Also if ppl get burned before prelude to liberation purple aoe, 9/10 times my aspected noct benefic will make them survive.

Also i really like it during bismark ex during p3 add phase as it helps shielding the tank with the 3 adds before the island slam.

To each his/her own and all, but for Ravana, Atma Linga is a joke to heal through. SCH can simply weave an Indom between tank heals, and the tank doesn't require pre-shielding unless you plan on having them eat Blinding Blade alone.

Noct can be played, of course, and it has some uses, but it really needs help to become more viable in more situations.

[Yumi_umi]

Also have u tried playing ast as an individual and not as a jr. Healer? Im not denying tht ast still needs a noct buff etc but my point is that u gotta try playing ast more better to see how it can shine over the 2 other healers.

Ast was designed for above average healers as its toolkit only rewards the good parties and punishes the bads. There is no middle ground saddly.

[Yumi_umi]

To each his/her own and all, but for Ravana, Atma Linga is a joke to heal through. SCH can simply weave an Indom between tank heals, and the tank doesn't require pre-shielding unless you plan on having them eat Blinding Blade alone.

Noct can be played, of course, and it has some uses, but it really needs help to become more viable in more situations.

Yet how many times have u seen tanks goof up or ur co healer forget about blinding lol. I actually go back to help ppl clear ex and teach em so i've seen a lot of different approaches made by tanks / co healers.

But yes im confused to y se didnt buff noct yet. Maybe they r waiting for an ast to clear alex savage before making a huge buff like tht.

[Cynfael]

Also have u tried playing ast as an individual and not as a jr. Healer? Im not denying tht ast still needs a noct buff etc but my point is that u gotta try playing ast more better to see how it can shine over the 2 other healers.

Ast was designed for above average healers as its toolkit only rewards the good parties and punishes the bads. There is no middle ground saddly.

What do you mean as "Jr. Healer?"

I'm becoming more of the opinion that AST was designed for the casual healer since skilled healers find too many holes in its kit to make it truly competitive with the other two healer Jobs. I see AST's current version as the lower-tier, niche character in a fighting game; you either play it simply because you like it, or you resign yourself to working that minimal toolkit for all you can just to try to keep up with what other characters can do with much less effort.

[Apeiron]

WHM + AST/Diurnal = good
WHM + AST/Noct = Meh but good
SCH + AST/Diurnal = good
SCH + AST/Noct = BAD. SCH is always going to over write Noct because he has a higher cure potency, even with the 5% boost that Noct gives. Also you don't need to save the SCH mp because they don't have mana issues and AST do.

Adloquium is a cure potency of 300
Succor is a cure potency of 150
Aspected Benefic is a cure potency of 199.5 (don't know if they round up or down)
Aspected Helios is a cure potency of 147
Physick is a cure potency of 400
Embrace is a cure potency of 300 (someone fact check me, please)
Benefic is a cure potency of 399
Benefic II is a cure potency of 651
(these are with Noct +5%)

If an AST is using AB or AH in Noct Sect for any reason other than emergencies where something has gone terribly, horribly wrong, they've done goofed. Meanwhile, they've got some very potent healing that they can do to keep the party up.

Not really seeing how this would be effective or more effective than AST (Diurnal)+SCH. SCH+AST (Noct) is just awful, and in every way inferior to SCHx2 or AST (Diurnal) + SCH. At least in SCHx2, your shields just don't stack; in SCH+AST (Noct), AST's smaller, less effective shields will overwrite SCH's larger, more effective shields. AST (Noct) also bring far less in terms of emergency healing, and with SCH's new abilities, stacking two SCH's really isn't all that awful if you communicate.

The only possible benefit I see is stacking SS and CU, which isn't worth the trade off of constantly wasting healing potential by overwriting shields.

Consider that the AST in Diurnal is only as effective as long as his regens are keeping up with damage to nullify or overcome the damage. The SCH's shields help the Dirunal AST because it gives the regens a chance to get a lead on the damage, hence why people find it effective. Meanwhile, a SCH and Nocturnal AST can't stack shields, but the AST can take advantage of the shields to help the SCH and fairy get the party back on top. While the SCH uses Lustrate on one or two people, the AST has Essential Dignity and Synastry. Essential Dignity alone can bring a tank near to or above 50%-60%, or DPS 60%-70% HP. Synastry allows one target to receive half the cures received by another party member from the AST that is not the AST or the target themselves.

Right there the AST helps bring 3/8 - 1/2 the party back to the top as the SCH and fairy bring up the rest.

Imo
Any decent ast with a brain will tell u
- Ast + sch =\= automatic dirunial sect
- ast + whm =\= automatic noct sect
You have to assess party and what instance ur doing.
I go noct always on rav ex as my noct aspected benefic really helps ease off the tank busting moves. Having the sch try to shield before tht buster is like so ur gonna hard cast while party is getting hit with atma linga lol. Also if ppl get burned before prelude to liberation purple aoe, 9/10 times my aspected noct benefic will make them survive.

Also i really like it during bismark ex during p3 add phase as it helps shielding the tank with the 3 adds before the island slam.

Thank you for the input.

The reason you don't see people jumping to test this theory with AST is because we all feel that we've been-there-done-that with the existing healer classes.

I really don't understand how SCH+Noct AST healing is supposed to be anything but either comparable or worse than SCH+SCH in the past, except with the added annoyance of having to be concerned with Galvanize and Nocturnal Field effects overwriting each other without regard to strength.

Now, with SCH's added burst AoE heal capability, the comparison is even weaker since Indom and ET+Succor allow SCHs to provide Medica-style AoE healing to fill the gap that the AST of either Sect would otherwise fill with (unaspected) Helios.

If we seriously consider that the Noct AST can provide healing and shielding coverage while the SCH does something else entirely, like focusing on DPS or being too far removed from the party to effectively heal everyone, sure, that's fine. However, a Diurnal AST will sustain heals far more efficiently over a longer period, and Noct shields aren't so powerful that they are likely to prevent a wipe through sheer mitigation (whereas a partner SCH could at least Deploy an Adlo to mitigate a deadly raid buster).

I will play with Noct in these situations more when I get the opportunity, but I'll be very surprised and pleased if the result is somehow different.

Thank you for at least trying.

[Akyio]

Also have u tried playing ast as an individual and not as a jr. Healer? Im not denying tht ast still needs a noct buff etc but my point is that u gotta try playing ast more better to see how it can shine over the 2 other healers.

Ast was designed for above average healers as its toolkit only rewards the good parties and punishes the bads. There is no middle ground saddly.

In theory it rewards good teams and punishes bad. But I only see how it punishes bad teams. How does AST reward good teams? By throwing 15sec 5%dmg buff once in 3~ minutes after shuffling and royal roading ?
AST rewarding good teams does not really exist, WHM or SCH in that case could reward good teams much better by for example - dpsing(cos whm and sch dps is higher than ast)

[GideonHighmourn]

snip

Arguing that Diurnal is only effective when recovery is important while arguing a hypothetical situation where you're focusing on the recovery process doesn't really prove your point. Dirunal helps far more in every situation in terms of recovery as opposed to Nocturnal, which is only situational. Yes, Diurnal is supposed to be used to "lead" or "prevent" damage, but their shields are far less potent than SCH's, and will overwrite them regardless of strength. Diurnal has all of the CD's you listed; they aren't specific to Nocturnal. Going Nocturnal with a SCH only gimps your groups total healing potential even more, especially when you consider shield overwriting.

While I appreciate the reason you're asking people to "test" this, we've tested it already with SCH+SCH in 2.0; it doesn't work, and only takes one fight of "testing" to see why shield stacking/overwriting is a major detriment to overall recovery potential. Especially with AST shields overwriting SCH's regardless of potency, all it takes is one Aspected Helios after Succor (or heaven forbid, Deployment Tactics), and I'd be swiftly trying to shove my face through my desk. At least with SCH+SCH, the stronger shield would always stay.

[Judge_Xero]

I think AST would have more synergy in either stance if Synastry performed the buffed heal on the linked target.

i.e. Aspected Helios with Synastry on the tank
490 Potency Shield on tank if it hits
7 people
Or
175 Potency Regen (50 × 7 1/2 over 30 s)

[Apeiron]

Arguing that Diurnal is only effective when recovery is important while arguing a hypothetical situation where you're focusing on the recovery process doesn't really prove your point. Dirunal helps far more in every situation in terms of recovery as opposed to Nocturnal, which is only situational. Yes, Diurnal is supposed to be used to "lead" or "prevent" damage, but their shields are far less potent than SCH's, and will overwrite them regardless of strength. Diurnal has all of the CD's you listed; they aren't specific to Nocturnal. Going Nocturnal with a SCH only gimps your groups total healing potential even more, especially when you consider shield overwriting.

While I appreciate the reason you're asking people to "test" this, we've tested it already with SCH+SCH in 2.0; it doesn't work, and only takes one fight of "testing" to see why shield stacking/overwriting is a major detriment to overall recovery potential. Especially with AST shields overwriting SCH's regardless of potency, all it takes is one Aspected Helios after Succor (or heaven forbid, Deployment Tactics), and I'd be swiftly trying to shove my face through my desk. At least with SCH+SCH, the stronger shield would always stay.

I wasn't trying to say that Diurnal is only effective in recovery, but that it's effectiveness is dependent on the 50potency healing more than the damage someone is receiving. Comparatively, a SCH is better off using Eos's Whispering Dawn, shielding, and letting the AST help heal up than they are in letting them drop A. Helios.

Whispering Dawn 21sec 100pot/tick - 7 ticks = total potency of 700
A. Helios 30sec 140+50/tick - 10 ticks = total potency of 640

A. Helios also costs nearly 1.5x as much Benefic II with a lesser cure potency per single target. In the instances where people take too much damage, it'd be better to rely on SCH shield while the AST follows up with stronger Helios and Benefic or Benefic II to keep up with the damage, as you can cast benefic and benefic II quicker than you can wait on regens.

The problem with SCH+SCH is that they don't work effectively together because you have one SCH at any given time overwriting the other's shields in an attempt to either protect party members or or provide AoE healing. When paired with an AST, this is not the problem. The SCH gets shield priority, while the AST assists with keeping HP up. Their AoE has a potency of 304.5 (again I don't know if this is rounded up or down) compared to Succor which has a potency of 150 -- twice the potency of Succor, and without worrying about shields being overwritten.