AST Sect Theory

[Cynfael]

Also have u tried playing ast as an individual and not as a jr. Healer? Im not denying tht ast still needs a noct buff etc but my point is that u gotta try playing ast more better to see how it can shine over the 2 other healers.

Ast was designed for above average healers as its toolkit only rewards the good parties and punishes the bads. There is no middle ground saddly.

What do you mean as "Jr. Healer?"

I'm becoming more of the opinion that AST was designed for the casual healer since skilled healers find too many holes in its kit to make it truly competitive with the other two healer Jobs. I see AST's current version as the lower-tier, niche character in a fighting game; you either play it simply because you like it, or you resign yourself to working that minimal toolkit for all you can just to try to keep up with what other characters can do with much less effort.

[Akyio]

Also have u tried playing ast as an individual and not as a jr. Healer? Im not denying tht ast still needs a noct buff etc but my point is that u gotta try playing ast more better to see how it can shine over the 2 other healers.

Ast was designed for above average healers as its toolkit only rewards the good parties and punishes the bads. There is no middle ground saddly.

In theory it rewards good teams and punishes bad. But I only see how it punishes bad teams. How does AST reward good teams? By throwing 15sec 5%dmg buff once in 3~ minutes after shuffling and royal roading ?
AST rewarding good teams does not really exist, WHM or SCH in that case could reward good teams much better by for example - dpsing(cos whm and sch dps is higher than ast)

[Yumi_umi]

To each his/her own and all, but for Ravana, Atma Linga is a joke to heal through. SCH can simply weave an Indom between tank heals, and the tank doesn't require pre-shielding unless you plan on having them eat Blinding Blade alone.

Noct can be played, of course, and it has some uses, but it really needs help to become more viable in more situations.

Yet how many times have u seen tanks goof up or ur co healer forget about blinding lol. I actually go back to help ppl clear ex and teach em so i've seen a lot of different approaches made by tanks / co healers.

But yes im confused to y se didnt buff noct yet. Maybe they r waiting for an ast to clear alex savage before making a huge buff like tht.

[GideonHighmourn]

snip

Arguing that Diurnal is only effective when recovery is important while arguing a hypothetical situation where you're focusing on the recovery process doesn't really prove your point. Dirunal helps far more in every situation in terms of recovery as opposed to Nocturnal, which is only situational. Yes, Diurnal is supposed to be used to "lead" or "prevent" damage, but their shields are far less potent than SCH's, and will overwrite them regardless of strength. Diurnal has all of the CD's you listed; they aren't specific to Nocturnal. Going Nocturnal with a SCH only gimps your groups total healing potential even more, especially when you consider shield overwriting.

While I appreciate the reason you're asking people to "test" this, we've tested it already with SCH+SCH in 2.0; it doesn't work, and only takes one fight of "testing" to see why shield stacking/overwriting is a major detriment to overall recovery potential. Especially with AST shields overwriting SCH's regardless of potency, all it takes is one Aspected Helios after Succor (or heaven forbid, Deployment Tactics), and I'd be swiftly trying to shove my face through my desk. At least with SCH+SCH, the stronger shield would always stay.

[Apeiron]

Arguing that Diurnal is only effective when recovery is important while arguing a hypothetical situation where you're focusing on the recovery process doesn't really prove your point. Dirunal helps far more in every situation in terms of recovery as opposed to Nocturnal, which is only situational. Yes, Diurnal is supposed to be used to "lead" or "prevent" damage, but their shields are far less potent than SCH's, and will overwrite them regardless of strength. Diurnal has all of the CD's you listed; they aren't specific to Nocturnal. Going Nocturnal with a SCH only gimps your groups total healing potential even more, especially when you consider shield overwriting.

While I appreciate the reason you're asking people to "test" this, we've tested it already with SCH+SCH in 2.0; it doesn't work, and only takes one fight of "testing" to see why shield stacking/overwriting is a major detriment to overall recovery potential. Especially with AST shields overwriting SCH's regardless of potency, all it takes is one Aspected Helios after Succor (or heaven forbid, Deployment Tactics), and I'd be swiftly trying to shove my face through my desk. At least with SCH+SCH, the stronger shield would always stay.

I wasn't trying to say that Diurnal is only effective in recovery, but that it's effectiveness is dependent on the 50potency healing more than the damage someone is receiving. Comparatively, a SCH is better off using Eos's Whispering Dawn, shielding, and letting the AST help heal up than they are in letting them drop A. Helios.

Whispering Dawn 21sec 100pot/tick - 7 ticks = total potency of 700
A. Helios 30sec 140+50/tick - 10 ticks = total potency of 640

A. Helios also costs nearly 1.5x as much Benefic II with a lesser cure potency per single target. In the instances where people take too much damage, it'd be better to rely on SCH shield while the AST follows up with stronger Helios and Benefic or Benefic II to keep up with the damage, as you can cast benefic and benefic II quicker than you can wait on regens.

The problem with SCH+SCH is that they don't work effectively together because you have one SCH at any given time overwriting the other's shields in an attempt to either protect party members or or provide AoE healing. When paired with an AST, this is not the problem. The SCH gets shield priority, while the AST assists with keeping HP up. Their AoE has a potency of 304.5 (again I don't know if this is rounded up or down) compared to Succor which has a potency of 150 -- twice the potency of Succor, and without worrying about shields being overwritten.

[GideonHighmourn]

The SCH gets shield priority, while the AST assists with keeping HP up.

Which is why they are gimping themselves by NOT being in Dirunal Sect. You follow this by saying AST's shield are better, which they aren't. AST's AoE shields have a potency of 150 vs SCH's 150, it's NOT "twice the potency of Succor"; don't try to skew the numbers. And they DO overwrite SCH shields, whether they are stronger or not.

A. Helios also costs nearly 1.5x as much Benefic II with a lesser cure potency per single target. In the instances where people take too much damage, it'd be better to rely on SCH shield while the AST follows up with stronger Helios and Benefic or Benefic II to keep up with the damage, as you can cast benefic and benefic II quicker than you can wait on regens.

Again, you are arguing about abilities that aren't specific to NOCTURNAL SECT. Benefic II and Helios are BOTH available to Dirunal Sect. Yes, they are 5% stronger in Nocturnal, but that's not going to suddenly make Noct + SCH more effective than Dirunal + SCH, simply because you have all the complications that come with shield overwriting. Not to mention, Dirunal's HEALING with DoTs is far more powerful than Noct's shielding potential, which you have already suggested they not do (?).

There is nothing that AST (Nocturnal) + SCH can bring to the table that AST (Dirunal) + SCH can't do better with less effort/communication.

Are you are actually suggesting that AST goes Nocturnal with SCH simply because of the 5% bonus on Benefic I/II and Helios, while neglecting Aspected Helios/Benefic? Because that's what I'm starting to get from this. Diurnal offers far more HEALING POTENTIAL than Nocturnal can by using Aspected Benefic/Helios.

[Apeiron]

Which is why they are gimping themselves by NOT being in Dirunal Sect. You follow this by saying AST's shield are better, which they aren't. AST's AoE shields have a potency of 150 vs SCH's 150, it's NOT "twice the potency of Succor"; don't try to skew the numbers. And they DO overwrite SCH shields, whether they are stronger or not.



Again, you are arguing about abilities that aren't specific to NOCTURNAL SECT. Benefic II and Helios are BOTH available to Dirunal Sect. Yes, they are 5% stronger in Nocturnal, but that's not going to suddenly make Noct + SCH more effective than Dirunal + SCH, simply because you have all the complications that come with shield overwriting. Not to mention, Dirunal's HEALING with DoTs is far more powerful than Noct's shielding potential, which you have already suggested they not do (?).

There is nothing that AST (Nocturnal) + SCH can bring to the table that AST (Dirunal) + SCH can't do better with less effort/communication.

Are you are actually suggesting that AST goes Nocturnal with SCH simply because of the 5% bonus on Benefic I/II and Helios, while neglecting Aspected Helios/Benefic? Because that's what I'm starting to get from this. Diurnal offers far more HEALING POTENTIAL than Nocturnal can by using Aspected Benefic/Helios.

The miscommunication comes from me not clarifying that I meant Helios, and your assumtion that I was referring to A. Helios -- which I already clarified earlier was weaker than Succor. I'm also not going to say they don't overwrite shields, because we all know they do. I'm not attempting to skewer numbers, please understand. I don't make any progress with my theory if I provide false numbers.

Now, yes, those skills are available to the AST in Diurnal, but they're also not as potent. It makes a differenece when you look at how the SCH is better off shielding, Divine Wind, and then healing with the AST alongside them than they are relying on regen. This is because that overall Divine Wind is going to do an overall better job of healing the group than A. Helios. Its duration is shorter, but has a higher consistant potency of 100. When I compared my SCH in the same gear as my AST, I found that Divine Wind was healing for twice as much as my A. Helios (surprise! or, well, not really :P).

There was more originally, but I seem to have made a mistake when I was editing.

It's been said a million times now. Please go test it for yourself, because we did ages ago. This is a completely fruitless topic.

I would love to. Sadly, I don't have a Static or FC to help me, and queues are so long for coil that it's almost impossible for me to get a full party during the weekdays.

[Cynfael]

I wasn't trying to say that Diurnal is only effective in recovery, but that it's effectiveness is dependent on the 50potency healing more than the damage someone is receiving. Comparatively, a SCH is better off using Eos's Whispering Dawn, shielding, and letting the AST help heal up than they are in letting them drop A. Helios.

Whispering Dawn 21sec 100pot/tick - 7 ticks = total potency of 700
A. Helios 30sec 140+50/tick - 10 ticks = total potency of 640

A. Helios also costs nearly 1.5x as much Benefic II with a lesser cure potency per single target. In the instances where people take too much damage, it'd be better to rely on SCH shield while the AST follows up with stronger Helios and Benefic or Benefic II to keep up with the damage, as you can cast benefic and benefic II quicker than you can wait on regens.

The problem with SCH+SCH is that they don't work effectively together because you have one SCH at any given time overwriting the other's shields in an attempt to either protect party members or or provide AoE healing. When paired with an AST, this is not the problem. The SCH gets shield priority, while the AST assists with keeping HP up. Their AoE has a potency of 304.5 (again I don't know if this is rounded up or down) compared to Succor which has a potency of 150 -- twice the potency of Succor, and without worrying about shields being overwritten.

I might be a little lost here, but I don't see why on earth you would take a Noct AST with a SCH following this logic. The Diurnal AST has a teeny-tiny bit less upfront potency in exchange for massively increased healing over time and MP efficiency before you even consider that CO and Time Dilation also happen to extend their HoT effects.

If you aren't bringing the Noct AST to provide shielding, you aren't bringing it at all. Diurnal beats it in every other way possible.

[Judge_Xero]

I think AST would have more synergy in either stance if Synastry performed the buffed heal on the linked target.

i.e. Aspected Helios with Synastry on the tank
490 Potency Shield on tank if it hits
7 people
Or
175 Potency Regen (50 × 7 1/2 over 30 s)

[Ninimo_Babamo]

It's been said a million times now. Please go test it for yourself, because we did ages ago. This is a completely fruitless topic.