Done with AST

[Leiloni]

Let me clarify there's no problem having 1 mch or brd in the group, the only time I would worry is when there were two or one of each. As to me or those Ast being bad I think it's too easy to say just because I can do it everyone must suck. I didn't say that we wiped just that I almost died a lot and those Asts were working hard. Also I think it's naive to assume that all the Asts were bad and all the whms and Schs were good as an explanation for my experience. I could be wrong my experiences Healing are limited.

I'm just trying to counter your statement that you think AST's as a class are bad and every run you have with them is bad. It's not a bad or incapable class. It's perfectly capable of doing that dungeon with ease with a variety of players and classes. The outcome is dependent on the player behind the class at that point. So either you have gotten a lot of bad players in your groups, or you are just the one lacking. Either way, the class itself is fine.

As for BRD and MCH, I've had both and it's been fine. The run is a bit slower but it's not some sort of disaster with people dying all over. I don't dread having any combination of dps in my groups, or any tank for that matter. I've seen people on SMN and BLM that are awful when those are two classes that should be doing great dps. So it really doesn't matter.

[Seryl199]

AST performs just fine for your everyday content. If healing dungeon runs is an absolute train wreck to do, there are some fundamental issues that need to be addressed, because an AST is entirely capable of healing them, speed runs and all.

I haven't dabbled in 3.0's raid yet, but I think some of the drama surrounding AST will die down over time as gear levels go up. Right now, healer DPS is cutting edge and very important to clearing raids, and that makes the margin of error even smaller for healers when the whole raid is likely undergeared as it is.

When your average party is able to pass DPS checks without being dependent on healers, there will be less pressure for healers to have maximum DPS uptime. Good raiders will still have DPS'ing healers, yes, but it won't be a critical facet to clearing the fight (they were designed that way to begin with). There may also come a point in ilevels where the WHM's healing throughput becomes redundant, allowing AST to step in and provide double buffs with a SCH's Selene with less issues.

During this time, when item levels are reducing the amount of pressure on AST, is probably when AST will be under heavy scrutiny from SE. They need to know AST's potential when geared, undergeared, and overgeared, and that potential is further skewed when you consider that the ilevels of the party members that AST can be buffing must be accounted for as well. SE could have buffed more with AST, but what if those buffs make AST incredibly strong with a party full of i210 players? They'd be forced to nerf the class, which no one likes.

We as players should continue to experiment with the class, push it to new limits, and continue to offer constructive feedback. As it is now, AST can be viewed as a challenging progression healer, and a seriously hardcore raid group doesn't look for a class with a built in challenge. They look for consistency in WHM and SCH.

[Dortharl]

Snip

As I said in my initial post I believe it's up to SE to decide if this a case of learn to play as you are clearly convinced it is, or if adjustments are required.

Also you seem to adding a sense of hyperbole to my post which I didn't initially intend, I don't believe Ast is a bad class, neither do I believe a run is impossible with 2 brd or mch and I don't think I ever said it was. I related my personal experience which was not a disaster with people dying all over it was more difficult which I said it was.

[Assirra]

AST performs just fine for your everyday content. If healing dungeon runs is an absolute train wreck to do, there are some fundamental issues that need to be addressed, because an AST is entirely capable of healing them, speed runs and all.

I haven't dabbled in 3.0's raid yet, but I think some of the drama surrounding AST will die down over time as gear levels go up. Right now, healer DPS is cutting edge and very important to clearing raids, and that makes the margin of error even smaller for healers when the whole raid is likely undergeared as it is.

When your average party is able to pass DPS checks without being dependent on healers, there will be less pressure for healers to have maximum DPS uptime. Good raiders will still have DPS'ing healers, yes, but it won't be a critical facet to clearing the fight (they were designed that way to begin with). There may also come a point in ilevels where the WHM's healing throughput becomes redundant, allowing AST to step in and provide double buffs with a SCH's Selene with less issues.

During this time, when item levels are reducing the amount of pressure on AST, is probably when AST will be under heavy scrutiny from SE. They need to know AST's potential when geared, undergeared, and overgeared, and that potential is further skewed when you consider that the ilevels of the party members that AST can be buffing must be accounted for as well. SE could have buffed more with AST, but what if those buffs make AST incredibly strong with a party full of i210 players? They'd be forced to nerf the class, which no one likes.

We as players should continue to experiment with the class, push it to new limits, and continue to offer constructive feedback. As it is now, AST can be viewed as a challenging progression healer, and a seriously hardcore raid group doesn't look for a class with a built in challenge. They look for consistency in WHM and SCH.

The problem is a lot bigger currently then you make it sound. There is a 145 pages thread on the japanese forums last i checked since they keep their discussions in 1 thread. Something i wish we would do here as well btw. The fact that everyone makes their own thread and the other threads get pushed back makes it seem a lot smaller then it actually is. This is not just some drama, this is currently a big issue.

Nobody is even talking about DPS at all here, people are talking about the healing ability of the Astrologean which is simply inferior to the other 2 healers. That is something that has to be fixed if we want to viable in all the content. It seems they thought cards would be nice but none of those actually improve our healing so for our healing kit all those spells are actually useless. Then we got sects which are basically nerfed spells on which they are based, either HoT's of White mage or shields of scholar.

Also, what you are basically saying is "as long as AST on farm content is good enough, it is fine". Not literally but that it what it comes down to. How in the world makes logic like that sense? Yes i rather have them fixed now and be nerfed later. The fact that a class would get so much out of gear is honestly a bad design and should be scrapped on drawing board so i hope it is not like that.

[Cynfael]

My issue with AST currently is that "fine" isn't good enough. Why would I consider playing a Job with tools that are, for the most part, merely adequate when I can play a true powerhouse healer like WHM or SCH?

Being passable at everything while excelling at nothing is a death sentence for a healer Job. There are three to choose from and high expectations for the role they occupy, at least when it comes to end game play. No one will want the healer with the most limited burst healing, the fewest healing CDs, the mediocre sustained DPS, potentially the worst MP-efficiency, and the RNG-heavy utility options.

I don't believe that waiting until we overgear everything to the point where the weaknesses cease to be as noticeable is a fair balancing solution.

[Tyla_Esmeraude]

Honestly the AST's you're getting in Fractal are bad and the MCH/BRD's your getting are also bad. I've cleared it numerous times on my AST with no problem and I've also cleared it with a DF Bard in my group in 70% HQ quest whites, including his weapon. So it's really not a hard dungeon for decent players.

Or, to be fair to those AST's, it's also possible that you're bad. :\

Hehe, DPS messing up and dying means it's the healer's fault 99% of the time for some people.

I wouldn't call the AST bad. I've saved runs on my AST, runs that went bad not because of me but because of the others. I'm mainly talking about the last boss of Fractal. What a horrible nightmare. After 2 wipes because the ninja wasn't helping the BRD to kill adds, the tank (don't know how) eating up the mines and whatever else they were doing that made me have to heal those 2 individuals more than usual (The BRD was the only one I trusted lol), the tank got one shotted and I thought "Here comes 3rd Wipe", I was like "NOPE NOPE". The boss went after me, I tanked it for a few, cure bombing myself until Swift was up, then raised the tank and victory ensured afterwards. I was lucky enough that I had used LA earlier so I had sufficient MP to afford a raise, curing myself and then keep on with the last 30% of the fight.
Of course when a DPS dies it's easier to blame the healer =.=; specially an AST, because they know that they don't have to put as much effort with a WHM/SCH since they will be there to cure through their mistakes.

I always get commendations on AST, I've saved runs, I've healed "I'm too cool for protect, gonna pull a huge pack of mobs without it" paper tanks without letting them die, I've done speedruns fine. That is not the point though. The point is it would've been less stressful for *me* had I gone WHM. That way I know that if people mess up (and they most probably will in DF >_>), there's higher chances to avoid a wipe. Whereas on AST, even if being able to heal "fine", will just give me huge headaches. I am sure it is the same with SCH, less stressful on that job that on AST. That's when you can clearly see the imbalances. Yes, it can BE done and you will only notice the struggle when people keep messing up everytime. Basically it feels like AST is missing level 50 to 60 abilities that would help it sustain. It's like if you went in with a lvl 50 WHM without all their 50-60 abilities (though... the monster divine seal and regen would probably be enough lol).

And that's just dungeons, don't get me started on Savage again... ._. yeaaaaahh, if everyone in my party played at their best, I could probably do it as AST, but that's not happening anytime soon. I'm stuck on WHM for the time being. =( I decided to make the change, not my static, but they would've probably told me at one point anyways. Remember what I said about curing through the mistakes? ...Yeah. Less stressful on WHM, I only do it for my health and sanity!

[Geardagas]

It's bad, and I was expecting changes, but the 3.05 changes weren't nearly good enough. I'm only 58 and looking at giving up because the writing is on the wall.

The reason is that our support simply isn't good enough to justify the laughably lower healing output.

Spire and Ewer - both completely and utterly useless before - are now just slightly less useless and still nothing but RR targets. Spear is still about 1/30th as useful as arrow, and it's still just a RR target. The only true buff we received was the lower shuffle recast, but that still doesn't solve the major issue of shuffling spire into spire, and it certainly doesn't make up for the spread nerf.

The absolute best thing an AST could do for support was hit every dps and tank with an expanded balance or arrow, and that was just nerfed into oblivion. Therefore, i have no problem saying that AST got even worse in 3.05 and there's no point in being one when WHM and SCH exist.

[Noira]

Why do people dread getting both bard and mch in dungeon runs ? They put out very good dps. It's easy content.

[Cynfael]

Why do people dread getting both bard and mch in dungeon runs ? They put out very good dps. It's easy content.

Because only good BRDs and MCH put out decent DPS, and the gap is fairly wide between, say, mediocre NIN and mediocre MCH. Ending up with the two lowest-damage DPS Jobs in a 4-person party and with not even a melee LB can be a little painful.

No, it's not always the end of the world to get one of each even if the players aren't really "tryhard," but it makes a potential chore take even longer.

[Grandmasthong]

So you cleared A1 savage with 2 Ast you are saying?