Parsers make you stupid

[Bishop81]

If you don't have the ability to have a decent discussion without "ranting" why come here at all?

The point is that with the data that parsers give you can analyze where exactly the issue is. Has nothing to do with crying about buffs and if that is the latest excuse against parsers you are really grasping for strings at this point.

Also, this thread is getting quite hypocritical at this point.
Nobody else is allowed to judge your way of play but if other people dare to do it otherwise it's nonsense like "Is that the kind of community SE wants to encourage?"

Different strokes for different folks.

/sigh

What wrong with playing with the tools given to you? Why can't you play within the "rules" (yes, it includes the limitation of the UI)?

People here have stated that you can clear raids without 3rd party software like parsers.

Oh, I don't think see treating others just as tools to further your own gear progression as a valid "way of play". Or at least it won't be a pleasant one, ergo, not healthy for the game in the long term.

Hit post limit so replying here.

And there you are again.

One line everyone should respect your way of play, the other you look down upon others.
If you don't understand it, don't comment on it.

Oh, I understand only too well.

Look at WoW. Look at the guild hopping and guild member poaching. Look at the way the developers bend over backwards to make sure all the classes are at parity, they retune every tier to make sure, else people will get "sat" and the forums will drown in tears. Players would rather give the finger to follow players if it meant quicker progression.

I don't think it's good for the game to encourage this sort of behavior.

[Assirra]

/sigh

What wrong with playing with the tools given to you? Why can't you play within the "rules" (yes, it includes the limitation of the UI)?

People here clear state you can clear raids without 3rd party software like parsers.

Oh, I don't think see treating others just as tools to further your own gear progression as a "way of play".

And there you are again.

One line everyone should respect your way of play, the other you look down upon others.
If you don't understand it, don't comment on it. Some people like to push it the extra mile and guess what and i am going to put it in caps so it might get in your head. THAT IS WHAT THEY LIKE.
I was part of such a group, we were a bunch of fun people joking in vent but when it was raiding time, stuff was serious and everyone had to pull their weight. The result was we were server first on most bosses and before strategies were out for everyone to copy. That was completely worth the serious atmosphere during raiding time and nobody complained.
The feeling of killing a big boss with your own designed strategies and the yelling once the boss went down was amazing.

[Krylo]

I think you are missing the point of the quote. But whatever.

So you admit you are a "ruthless" player that will drop anyone if they don't help you progress. Is that the kind of community SE wants to encourage? YoshiP plays WoW, he has seen first hand just how out of control it can get with player demands over DPS deltas and the way players treat one another.

Go back and read the rest. I hit the wrong button when I tried to cut so I couldn't just paste it and it took me a minute to type it all back out.

[Krylo]

Look at WoW. Look at the guild hopping and guild member poaching. Look at the way the developers bend over backwards to make sure all the classes are at parity, they retune every tier to make sure, else people will get "sat" and the forums will drown in tears. Players would rather give the finger to follow players if it meant quicker progression.

I don't think it's good for the game to encourage this sort of behavior.

Look: Either classes are all balanced very close to each other and are all capable of meeting necessary checks, or weaker classes get pushed out, OR you make the content incredibly face roll easy so literally anyone can do it, because you have to account for a group of nothing but your weakest class.

That 'behavior' is necessary for clearly anything that's ACTUALLY difficult. You either train people up to be on the level of the content, ask them to change classes, or don't let them in if they're not there. Otherwise you can't win.

The alternative is to have nothing in the game that's harder than Neverreap. Nothing that challenges anyone at all in any real way.

[aerialrave]

I'd say parsers are not necessary at all for all current content up to Alex Savage. I main MCH and I have played with Bards and we have cleared Bismarck and Ravanna. If you gear up properly, know your skill rotation, and handle the mechanics properly you'll pass the DPS checks without issue. The reason why Alex Savage can be counted as an exception is because it is content that is not designed to be cleared in i180~186ish gear (what we have right now), so you must go above and beyond what is normal and squeeze out every last bit of DPS possible.

For Alex4 Normal specifically, that fight cannot be reliably parsed due to the Quarantine mechanic. So yeah that person was in the wrong to call you out. Plus the main tank has it the easiest in that fight because as you noticed and already stated they basically stay in 1 spot for the whole fight. If you're hitting the hard enrage instant wipe timer, it isn't really due to DPS issues. It's most likely due to people dying (failing the mechanics). Dead = 0 DPS. In my experience (farming this 100s of times to get that stupid Spring to drop), fast groups will clear the fight after 2 Discoids. An average group will clear it with 3 Discoids, this is what you should be aiming for. A slow group will barely clear it in 4 Discoid casts (tank needs to do serious work here). I'm not sure if there's a 5th Discoid but the tank is likely to die at this point. If the fight is taking that long there is definitely some problems with people dying. One DPS target I've noticed is that decent groups can whittle down the center piece to 94% after the first leg drops so you should be aiming for at least that much. If you can drop it further than that, then you're doing great. But if you can't hit 94% there are definitely problems going on.

I'm sorry you became the scapegoat here because in all actuality this fight is usually on the healers. Keep people healed up properly, and they won't die to mechanics. If they're not dead, they can DPS and you will win the fight just fine.

[ShaneDawn]

As for what happens if the group doesn't meet the damage check? Everyone go and try to improve as much as they can. Over time, gear will nerf the difficulty of the encounter anyway.

You know that's not always going go happen, unless you expect a person with 1,3k dps on Faust for example go an extra mile to 1,4k to save that 900dps Bard?

Parsers are only as bad as the people using them. Sure, you can go all ape shit on the person often not pulling their weight, but you can also have civilized discussion as to why is it happening and how to overcome it. In an ideal world, everyone in a raid group are going to see as much effort to better themselves and the raid to progress on the newest content, but in reality that's only going to happen in the most hardcore of groups. And a lot of people don't even realize they're doing something wrong unless they see the data.

[ShaneDawn]

I can understand people being against parsers in dungeon and casual/mid-tier content, but why shun it even on the most latest hardcore raids? Everyone has to carry their weight their, and better both their own and the raids overall play to clear the content before they get outgeared and/or nerfed heavily. I don't think I've ever heard of a single actual raider whining about the parse data; they're just happy to see their numbers getting better when they practice the content or get a pointer when things are going awry.

If you're being super sensitive about other people seeing your dps on the latest hardcore content, whether it be up to par or sub-par, maybe doing the content is not for you? Parsers or not, to o
progress you're going to have to critizise both your own and your teammates play at times. You just don't have to be mean about it, but acknowledge it.

[JigsawComplex]

To play devil's advocate, parsers for sure have a place when talking about progression and fixing an issue. Sometimes, the issue is mechanics, rotation, or even the player. If you can't adapt to or change the first two, then you need to change the third one. It sucks, but when 3-7 other people are being held up for the shortcoming of one person, that person needs to go.

[Shougun]

They should get those addons working so we can give everyone a self parser xD, parse shaming won't stop like other forms of shaming (rude players be rude) but at least we can get everyone on the same field of knowledge (and harassment is punishable, so just report harassment and let the GMs do their judgment). Some may take that knowledge and run the wrong way with it "if i don't dodge this aoe I can get 10 more deeps", but they'd probably do something else wrong too if that was the case - no real change there.

I doubt parsing has any effects on content but end game, but then I think thats why SE should get everyone a parser to be on that same field of information (story mode for example is meant to be completed, just designed to be "completed" ). End game wise if you play better and they design content for those "best" players then you've raised the bar by playing better (can still do things without it, but self/team improvement may be bit like finding the end of a tunnel blindfolded). Also takes out a lot of the mysticism on how to play your class well and better discussions on what actually needs a buff/nerf ("fracture feels useless", "please read this").

Besides you can easily find top tier groups parse, public information.

[rappa]

The parser is a tool, is not dangerous per se. Players use bad the tool to harrasement or blame others.

I am a parser user, i am not blaming you if i am doing 800dps and you 700. If you do 350 dps i'll ask why. Sometimes is easy to discover the lack of dps (a blm casting Fire III rotation instead of Fire I "because" fire III does more damage than one), others are more hard to see. I met a blm who casted 2 blizzard III to recover full mana. Then i tip him "if you use one blizzard III and cast another damage ability, you will recover full mana and you will do more damage. He learned and improved their skill as BLM.

I played with others guys who refused to take tips and improve themselves arguing "i play as i want". Sorry mate, you could play as you want but i don't wanna play with you anymore. I don't carry players. A carried player don't learn, don't become good player, just will wait for other players to do his job as dps dealer.

If a player is underperforming and you let them. You are as guilty as they are.