Astro in savage

[Lastelli]

You can get past the character limit by editing your post.

...it's dumb design that discourages well written posts and increases frustration.

Thanks for the info

[Rashammel]

I Will try give my Feedback here, whit same sugestions.
I'm playing as AST for everything, but i still need to do Savage.
Cards
Arrow, Balance,Bore,Ewer Need a buff on potency,they feel very weak atm and is sad to get a good combo of cards and everyone just ignore it, no one ver said thanks for a bole whit Potency boost before a Blinding Rage or a AoE Balance on a DPS check moment.
Sugestion: Buff the cards, you can just make two kinds of "Buffs" related to sects, like extended potency for Noct, or extended time for Diurnal.
Spire The problem is so rare to see a DPS needing TP, bust still have a use if i can see the TP from my partners,since 2.0 when i was playing as BRD I asked myself why we can't see others guys tp.
Spear Recast Reduction it's uselless no matter how much you try to sugarcoat this, the job whit the bigger number of oGDC in the game is BRD, so in my inocence thinked whit me "Use Spear on that BRD", he use Bloodletter you reduce his Cd on 1,5s, Barrage is 9s, but if he already have that skill on CD or is just waiting for the next Emperal Arrow to pop and use her, the only use I see is to use that right before you tank use a powerfull CD, but y'know the spear is a RNG card you can't use her on that right moment unless RNG-sama Bless you. So Spear have no eficiency on a long run.
Royal Road I think RR have a big problem, if i get Bole,Balance,Arrow I will prefer to use them or just use Spread to save that for later, so when i get good cards I almost don't use RR because I don't wanna burn a card just to next time came a worst card (e.g: Spear/Spire).Sugestion: I think if RR work like a Buff i can use after a draw the card whitout Burning that card, will be cool, make RNG like the cards so I will use RR before the card and for that card I will got a Random Buff. Still RNG but that will give me the choice to use a Ewer whitout any buff on me and save a a Buffed Balance/Arrow/bole for my friends and maybe help os card be more efective, and dont making us so much OP because that will be a buffed card after 60~70s. Other sugestion is make all cards AoE, and the RR Efect will depend on the sect.
Collective Unconscious, y' know whit all that aoe, Tank getting Damage, and other stuff,If I have to stay unable do anything for 18 seconds make this skill almost unusable, every time I use this I have time to only let one tick/ two ticks have efect before i have to move or everyone get out of the Bubble. Sugestion: I love the lore behind the skill, how everyone is conected and the Furtune telling talk, why didn't you make this skill some kind of "chain" whit a 3y radius from the next person If i use the Skill she will give a buff for everyone the buff will have 18s, For every people "chained" by the buff the efect get strong.
So if you have to go Away from the party you will have a less powerfull version of the buff. But if everyone have to stay together they will have a good Buff.
Celestial Opposition Aoe Stun? Pretty much uselles till now, it's like Blunt Arrow from the BRD, if you need a right time for silence the boss you will not be using the skill for other things, so we can't use the 5 seconds improve on the buffs when we want to use it. So stun isn't a good debuff because except from Dugeons runs on Big pulls, this skill don't have any feeling of utility, and y'know the other healers have a lvl 60 Skill whit big utility on 60. The improviment on our buffs is so rare to use because I won't be using this for improve a Aspected Helios on Diurnal, and want o use this to improve a AoE Card.
Noct sect Is so weak,, I just use this when paired whit another AST, and i feel like being a burden for him, also the mp cost on this is to high, whenever a tried using this when a solo run/paired whit a White Mage I have high mp issues.

Just my Opinion.

[Ghishlain]

-Snip-

You seemed to have comprehended most of it, given your response Indeed, there is no simple solution to the "AST buff problem" because AST buffs are highly dependent on so many different factors that are outside of their control. If you end up using Extended Balance at the same time your DRG is popping their burst phase, that's gonna skew the potency of that buff to a higher degree. Likewise despite Expanded Balance being the best DPS increase, if you get that combination in the middle of the add phase of Oppressor, you're probably only going to get 2/3 of your party with that Expand. Also, as you've rightfully mentioned bring an AST will generally lower the contribution from your healer DPS.

It's funny, because if you consider Yoshi-P's comment about how they take zero Healer DPS into account while tuning raids, one can make an educated assumption that they would try to balance AST card buffs around the best steady buff the healers have - Fey Wind.

But we all know that the players won't consider this and instead balance what the total DPS an AST can bring versus WHM and SCH. This in itself is difficult to determine because raw healer DPS is a function of player skill and how good your raid is at dodging "the dodge-able" and mitigating the damage properly. This compounded by the fact that the DPS an AST brings to the table via buffs is directly dependent on the player skill, gear, and job of the DPS and Tanks you have as well as the RNG type situations a raid encounter might put these players through. You can argue this affects all healers, but I would like to think this affects AST a bit more than it would WHM and SCH.

Well, let's go back to the simpler stuff for now and put the obvious out on the table.

1) Yep, you are correct, I did forget to divide the Expanded buff by two, will adjust that calculation a bit later down this post.
2) In your math, you did forget to take into account being able to Shuffle every time you want your "real" draw, and when you include shuffle into your math, you have a 55.5% chance to draw Balance or Arrow after your Royal Road.
3) I also do not also like the assumption that Arrow % increase = DPS % increase because there's a lot of factors that make haste less desirable (has no effect on DoTs) and more desirable (stacking with Huton / Greased Lightning makes it better!). However, since many players are making the assumption that the 1.5% Fey Wind gives = 1.5% raid damage, let's just do it for the sake of easy math.

The math below will be an attempt to balance at what potency Arrow / Balance should be to meet a 1.5% raid DPS check. Like before, I will be assuming you're RRing the first card in any your two draw set and you will be shuffling to get a DPS increasing card for the second draw.

So, let's consider the RR part first:

33.3% chance of getting Extend
33.3% chance of getting Enhance
33.3% chance of getting Expand

However, you wouldn't RR Balance because using Balance and then drawing another Balance in your second draw is equal to getting Extended Balance and Extended Balanced > Enhanced Balance. Therefore your probability changes to:

50.0% chance of getting Extend
16.7% chance of getting Enhance
33.3% chance of getting Expand

So, let's continue to use that A1S parse that was posted and go with the fact that the SMN contributed 19.72% of the party damage as our single target source. Let's consider X to be the value we need to meet our goal.

Extend = X * (30 uptime / 60 downtime) * 19.72% of raid damage * 55.5% chance to get Arrow / Balance * 50% chance for Extend = X * 0.0274
Enhance = X * 1.5 Enhance Bonus * (15 uptime / 60 downtime) * 19.72% of raid damage * 55.5% chance to get Arrow / Balance * 16.7% chance for Enhance = X * 0.0069
Expand = X * 0.5 Expand Penalty * (15 uptime / 60 downtime) * 100.00% of raid damage * 55.5% chance to get Arrow / Balance * 33.3% chance for Expand = X * 0.0231

So, now we solve for X.

0.015 = 0.0274X + 0.0069X + 0.0231X = 0.0574X
X = 0.015/0.0574 = 26.13%

So, in order for AST buffs to match Fey Wind's power, Arrow and Balance need to be buffed to 26.13%.

HOWEVER, consider the following:
1) In that parse, they managed to do 8,020 DPS to Faust and still took 2:34 to complete the fight. Based on what I've seen Faust you need approximately minimum 6200 single target DPS to break him. This means that chances are the OT stacked adds near Faust and was still pummeling Faust and giving the SMN additional DPS via Deathflare and Shadowflare.
2) Healer DPS for this fight will be lower as you will need to change one of the healers for AST.
2a) If you change the WHM to AST, you will most likely lose the 2% the WHM provided and your SCH will probably DPS slightly less to make up for the lost HPS. However, Synastry at an opportune time will probably give the SCH slightly more uptime on their DPS.
2b) If you change the SCH to AST, WHM contribution will probably drop to near 0% to make up for the lower HPS Aspect Benefic will bring compared to Fairy for "regen healing". Likewise, if your AST is DPSing on the same time frame that SCH is, they're damage will be a bit lower as they have 2 "no miss" DoTs (Combust + Combust II) compared to 3 from the SCH (Bio + Bio II + Shadowflare). While Malefic II is higher potency than Broil, Malefic II is subject to accuracy constraints. Like SMN, if you take into account Shadowflare is also pinging the adds, that'll be a further decrease. Gut feeling tells me AST raw DPS contribution would be 2% of raid damage in this case.
3) My math did not take into considering using Time Dilation or Celestial Opposition to extend buffs further
4) Arrow will most likely mean less to this group than Balance because of SMN / SCH DoTs and BRDs can't auto-attack while in WM.

So, despite my massive wall of text, we still don't actually have a real statistical model to calculate what the "appropiate" buff % to Balance and Arrow should because there is still a large amount of variables to the fight that is difficult to "math" for. If you want to expand on this model, you also have to consider the "well, should I shuffle Extend / Enhance and go for Expand and hope I draw a DPS card?" as well as the fact that being able to Spread a card beforehand make shuffling for Expand much more desirable.

TLDR: Lots of variables to consider, what's above is only a simple model of "balancing" AST DPS to other healer DPS that is no where near complete.

====

The above is also assuming - the content is on farm and you don't need any other buff that the AST provides to clear it. This will definitely not be the case in progression content - which makes AST even less desirable as 10% on Arrow / Balance only gives an average party buff of 0.92% at this juncture.

Balancing ASTs buffs feels absolutely horrible and I don't think there's any easy way for S-E to do it.
Balancing ASTs healing is a lot easier and should probably be answered first, though I imagine there's a function where S-E wants AST to be slightly weaker and provide buffs to the party that makes them more desirable. That's a very very fine line at this point.

=======

Thank you for the explanation!

Also, where did my post go?

You're welcome~

For some reason, Richard's post to my wall of text was pruned and I'm not sure why. I personally felt we were making attempts to at least rectify the situation.

============

This is a little overcomplicated. All you need to do is calculate the probability of not getting a card you want and inverting that to get the probability of the card you want showing up. Basically, 1 - (2/3)*(2/3) = 0.55555555555555 = 55.5%. It's also quite easy to calculate the chances of drawing the card you want if shuffle can't redraw a card: 1 - (4/6)*(3/6) = 2/3 = 66.6666666666% for getting either arrow or balance and 1 - (5/6) * (4/6) = 44.4444444444444% to draw a specific card using shuffle.

Thanks for this I haven't done statistical analysis for a while so I'm a bit rusty / trying to Google things to make sure I'm correct. I might need to pull out my old statistics text book soon if we keep this up >>;

[Lastelli]

snip

Yes, I oversimplified my math and probably did some mistakes, but it seems we agree on most points. As you said, arrow is probably less desirable than balance (tp issues, cd alignment issues, the fact that %speed=/=%dps increase and so on), so the value you calculated for arrow/balance (26%) is probably a little on the low side. Btw I think that the real problem is what you correctly pointed out here

But we all know that the players won't consider this and instead balance what the total DPS an AST can bring versus WHM and SCH.

If SE is planning to keep AST as a support/healer job, then they cannot ignore this simple fact. I really feel bad for them, balancing AST will not be an easy task.
Also, I fear they will not have enough data available to fix AST soon enough. Most if not all parties are already putting AST aside for raid progression...they can run all the regressions they want on parties with a SCH/WHM combo to see what the avg dps contribution of healers is (provided they stop ignoring the healers' dps), but if noone is clearing AS with an AST, which seems to be the case, I really can't see how they can observe anything to understand what to fix.
Well, good luck SE lol

[Ariel_Valmont]

Got my first taste of savage last night. No clear yet, but I did not feel I was letting my group down, nor did they from the feedback I received. I also did not feel like it would have been easier if I was using a different job.

[Skapoc]

So I finally got to raid in savage today on Astro and it was easy to heal with a WHM in both stances(I tried both and they both work well) in only the short amount of time we had today we got to the second jump and into the 3rd rotation. Synastry lines up with every double prey allowing you to keep your tank topped off by healing your prey target and then you can disable the oppressor to soften the tank buster. The healing in that fight is super predictable. I don't want to be that person but no body should be having a hard time healing that fight on Astro if you have a WHM.

[Zhemos]

My suggestion.

Make Celestial Opposition a 60 second cooldown.
Take away the minus 50% potency on RR aoe cards, or increase the duration of the cards by 7 seconds.
Essential Dignity cooldown increase to 60 seconds, potency increase to 600
Make Lightspeed cooldown 60 seconds
Take away the channeling on collective unconscious, make it place where you stand.
Aspected Helios same range as medica 2
Time dilation usable on self
Change disable to decrease potency on all actions used for the next 10 seconds.
PLEASE change shuffle so you cannot draw the same card twice. It happens TOOOOOOO much and is very frustrating.

Nocturnal stance I dunno. It needs to change. The only thing I can think of is to either make the shield like scholars where you get the double potency effect on crit, or allow us to switch freely between Noct and Diurnal with a 10-15 second cooldown.

[Budi]

Got my first taste of savage last night. No clear yet, but I did not feel I was letting my group down, nor did they from the feedback I received. I also did not feel like it would have been easier if I was using a different job.

It would have been easier though. With 100% certainty.

snip. I don't want to be that person but no body should be having a hard time healing that fight on Astro if you have a WHM.

I agree that the fight is doable on Astrologian, but remember this is the very first turn of the raid, and the fight had no need for extensive damage reduction.

[RudyEstheim]

Saw these videos on youtube of this AST Yoshiyuki Ly for those that wanna see.

Floor 1 Savage
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZkTySAHDI4

Floor 2 Savage
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWfPcG43yrA

[Rahaya]

but if noone is clearing AS with an AST, which seems to be the case, I really can't see how they can observe anything to understand what to fix.
Well, good luck SE lol

Very much not the case.